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What is the best explanation for the origin/fine-tuning of the universe ?
Posted: 24 October 2009 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 05:05 PM
George - 24 October 2009 04:35 PM
Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 04:19 PM

what mechanism beside God and chance do you propose to set the right constant ?

Some type of “cosmic natural selection” selecting from a number of different universes. Of course this would imply that the “right” constant is as right as the yellow colour of a flower designed by natural selection to attract insects to get pollinated.

i have collected some information and compelling evidence , like a personal bibliotheque, for the existence of the God of the bible :

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/astronomy-cosmology-and-god-f15/bigbang-inflation-requires-fine-tuning-t151.htm

Do you think this is worthy of being discussed at the Center for Inquire?  wink

Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 04:19 PM

Another interesting example of a finely-tuned initial condition is the critical density of the universe. In order to evolve in a life-sustaining manner, the universe must have maintained an extremely precise overall density. The precision of density must have been so great that a change of one part in 10^15 (i.e. 0.0000000000001%) would have resulted in a collapse, or big crunch, occurring far too early for life to have developed, or there would have been an expansion so rapid that no stars, galaxies or life could have formed.9 This degree of precision would be like a blindfolded man choosing a single lucky penny in a pile large enough to pay off the United States’ national debt.

So what? If a flower turns out to be red instead of yellow, it’ll get pollinated by birds and not insects. If the plant gets attacked by a fungus before it gets a chance to produce a single flower of any colour it’ll die. Your “intersting example” is a non sequitur.

Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 05:05 PM

So : as long as your cosmic natural selection does not set the right constants, no universe at all would arise. your cosmic natural selection would have to make 10^15 attempts…to get the right constant.

There is no right constant. Our constant was not the aim.

Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 05:05 PM

BTW. what mechanism do you propose to make all these attempts ?  chance ? luck ? whatelse ?

I didn’t study carpentry in Judea, I doesn’t know much.  cheese

[ Edited: 24 October 2009 06:38 PM by George ]
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Posted: 24 October 2009 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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VYAZMA - 24 October 2009 05:35 PM

I became aware of your “ridiculous” and irrational faith-based thinking when you approached with this: “then you don’t put much faith in science, right ?  has science not discovered already a lot of things ?”
Do you guys sometimes realize how contrived and deceitful your communication skills are? It’s really pathetic. It’s so weak. It’s so coy, and phony.

first of all : sorry for my basic and limited English. It’s not my native language. So , don’t you use any faith at all in your thinking ?

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Posted: 24 October 2009 06:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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We all use faith in our everyday behavior, but I believe you are talking about an entirely different type of faith.  When I drive through an intersection, I have faith that the other cars will stop when they have the red light.  However, one cannot use faith in an argument.  I do not believe that any god exists; you apparently do.  For you to offer an argument based on the existence of a god is meaningless and silly when you are discussing it with me.  Similarly, were I to offer an argument based on the lack of a god it would be unacceptable and weak to you.  That’s why I don’t.  So, leave god out it it.  That is not a valid explanation in the context of us discussing it here. 

As I see it, being able to say, “I don’t know” is a far more rational and mature approach to things we haven’t yet discovered (and may never discover), than the childish demand for explanations even if they are fairytales.  And, I consider god a fairytale.

Occam

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Posted: 24 October 2009 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 06:00 PM
VYAZMA - 24 October 2009 05:35 PM

I became aware of your “ridiculous” and irrational faith-based thinking when you approached with this: “then you don’t put much faith in science, right ?  has science not discovered already a lot of things ?”
Do you guys sometimes realize how contrived and deceitful your communication skills are? It’s really pathetic. It’s so weak. It’s so coy, and phony.

first of all : sorry for my basic and limited English. It’s not my native language. So , don’t you use any faith at all in your thinking ?

Faith? Yeah I guess so- confidence in my abilities. Confidence in other peoples abilities. I have confidence in outcomes I think are going to come up favorably. Whether by chance, or by mine or others construction.
So, I could say- I have faith I’m going to get a new job. I’ve put alot of work into it, and have done all I can to ensure I will get a new job.
Do, I have faith in some super being who is guiding me and the rest of the world? No. Absolutely not.
Let’s see… I had faith in Barak Obama, I still do have alot of faith in him, but it has slightly diminished. So you see the faith I’m talking about don’t you?
If your going to use a god Adonai, use him for your spiritualism, and well being, don’t use him to explain the universe.

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Posted: 24 October 2009 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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what mechanism beside God and chance do you propose to set the right constant ?

Here’s the thing, millions of years of evolution, and hundreds of years of science, and we are just barely beginning to get a handle on the size and shape of the universe and what is holding it together. We could grasp that there was something much larger than ourselves long before we could begin to calculate what it was. The concept of god has served us well in dealing with that (at least that is my opinion, but that debate is for a different thread). That concept has changed as we have become more intelligent.

The question of the topic title is one that the best minds are working on, so to expect an answer in a forum is a little silly. To say it is either God or chance when the answers don’t come immediately is even sillier.

[ Edited: 24 October 2009 07:39 PM by Lausten ]
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Posted: 24 October 2009 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Occam - 24 October 2009 06:16 PM

We all use faith in our everyday behavior, but I believe you are talking about an entirely different type of faith.  When I drive through an intersection, I have faith that the other cars will stop when they have the red light.  However, one cannot use faith in an argument.  I do not believe that any god exists;

that IS faith. Specially, if you come to that conclusion after a thinking process. after a close examination of different facts.
If you are a weak atheist, i mean a atheist, that has simply lack of faith that god does not exist, than it is questionable what you do at this forum, specially being the moderator. If you are a strong atheist,and i suppose you are, then you have reasons to believe, God does not exist. These reasons however are all situated in the universe of faith.

Occam - 24 October 2009 06:16 PM

As I see it, being able to say, “I don’t know” is a far more rational and mature approach to things we haven’t yet discovered (and may never discover), than the childish demand for explanations even if they are fairytales.  And, I consider god a fairytale.
Occam

If you think my asking of a explanation of the origin of the universe is childish , than i ask myself : what is your reason of participating at this topic ?
do you like to examine and to answer to childish questions ?

[ Edited: 24 October 2009 08:12 PM by Adonai888 ]
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Posted: 24 October 2009 08:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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VYAZMA - 24 October 2009 06:18 PM

Do, I have faith in some super being who is guiding me and the rest of the world? No. Absolutely not.
Let’s see… I had faith in Barak Obama, I still do have alot of faith in him, but it has slightly diminished. So you see the faith I’m talking about don’t you?
If your going to use a god Adonai, use him for your spiritualism, and well being, don’t use him to explain the universe.


So what is the difference between your thinking , and mine ?  You say , my thinking is ridiculous” and irrational faith-based thinking.  If you would however KNOW, what the cause of our universe is, you would not say :

Do, I have faith in some super being who is guiding me and the rest of the world? No. Absolutely not.

you would not need any faith, since you would have proves of the origin of the universe. Proves, to exclude God as a explanation.
So , my question to you is : what makes you so sure, God does not exist ?
To answer the question, what was the cause of the universe, i think we have not many answers :
1. The universe has no cause, but is eternal.
2. The universe had a beginning, therefor it had a cause. God is the best explanation as the cause of the universe.
3. ” nothing ” is the cause of the universe, through chance/luck the universe was created.

The universe is not eternal, but had a absolute beginning with the Big Bang, therefor, nr.1 can be excluded
From nothing, nothing derives, therefor, nr. 3 can be excluded

therefor, it remains God as the only rational answer to what was the cause of the universe.

” I don’t know ” is just a cheap escape to avoid God. That is simply not a honest answer.

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Posted: 24 October 2009 08:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Lausten - 24 October 2009 07:33 PM

The question of the topic title is one that the best minds are working on, so to expect an answer in a forum is a little silly. To say it is either God or chance when the answers don’t come immediately is even sillier.

why do you think it is silly to say only God or ” nothing ” are the only logical answers ? that is simply philosophical inductive inference, and absolutely reasonable.

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/morriston.html

Now there is no doubt that creatio ex nihilo is deeply baffling.  I well recall thinking, as I began to study the kalam cosmological argument, that all of the alternatives with respect to the universe’s existence––the infinitude of the past, creation ex nihilo, spontaneous origination ex nihilo ––were so bizarre that the most reasonable option seemed to be that nothing exists!  Since our existence is, however, undeniable, we must settle, however uncomfortably, on one of the above three.  Since we assume for the sake of argument in the present discussion the finitude of the past, our choices are creation ex nihilo or an uncaused origination ex nihilo.  It seems to me that there is a very simple and yet decisive reason for preferring creation, namely, whereas creation ex nihilo is counter–intuitive in denying to the universe a material cause, it at least ascribes to it an efficient cause, whereas the spontaneous origination of the universe ex nihilo is doubly counter–intuitive in that it denies of the universe both a material and (especially) an efficient cause.

[ Edited: 24 October 2009 08:34 PM by Adonai888 ]
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Posted: 25 October 2009 12:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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why do you think it is silly to say only God or ” nothing ” are the only logical answers ? that is simply philosophical inductive inference, and absolutely reasonable.

You seem to be young, I hope you find the time to move beyond William Lane Craig. I’m not going to argue the finer points of philosophical inductive inference. I would suggest you have created a false dichotomy. The best you can do with logic is to come to the conclusion that something caused the creation of the universe. The leap to any particular God is very far from there. You haven’t indicated which God you might think it was, but I’m assuming the Christian one.

I really do not want to discourage you from thinking these things through or attempting to engage others, however I would like to make some suggestions on how you go about it. The world is built on compromise and learning how to do that is much more important that convincing others of your beliefs.  You say “all of the alternatives with respect to the universe’s existence” then list 3 and immediately dismiss one. Have you done any study in physics? If I want to know how the universe began, I wouldn’t start with something written thousands of years ago. Whether it was written by Moses or Aristotle, I wouldn’t expect to find the answer. I’m not able to sit down with Stephen Hawking, but I can get some sense that he knows what he is talking about.

From what I understand, we are getting close to understanding the beginnings of all the matter that we now see. One thing I discovered recently, that gets lost in the Big Bang discussion, is that there was something before that. Time and matter didn’t exist in the forms we understand them now, so it gets really hard to describe what was there, or have any mathematical equation that can. My non-scientific understanding of it is some kind of pure energy. It is, as you say counter-intuitive, but what I understand is that it can now be demonstrated that things can happen without cause.  It is not a violation of the natural laws.

Paul Davies on origins

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Posted: 25 October 2009 02:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 08:23 PM
VYAZMA - 24 October 2009 06:18 PM

Do, I have faith in some super being who is guiding me and the rest of the world? No. Absolutely not.
Let’s see… I had faith in Barak Obama, I still do have alot of faith in him, but it has slightly diminished. So you see the faith I’m talking about don’t you?
If your going to use a god Adonai, use him for your spiritualism, and well being, don’t use him to explain the universe.


So what is the difference between your thinking , and mine ?  You say , my thinking is ridiculous” and irrational faith-based thinking.  If you would however KNOW, what the cause of our universe is, you would not say :

Do, I have faith in some super being who is guiding me and the rest of the world? No. Absolutely not.

you would not need any faith, since you would have proves of the origin of the universe. Proves, to exclude God as a explanation.
So , my question to you is : what makes you so sure, God does not exist ?
To answer the question, what was the cause of the universe, i think we have not many answers :
1. The universe has no cause, but is eternal.
2. The universe had a beginning, therefor it had a cause. God is the best explanation as the cause of the universe.
3. ” nothing ” is the cause of the universe, through chance/luck the universe was created.

The universe is not eternal, but had a absolute beginning with the Big Bang, therefor, nr.1 can be excluded
From nothing, nothing derives, therefor, nr. 3 can be excluded

therefor, it remains God as the only rational answer to what was the cause of the universe.

” I don’t know ” is just a cheap escape to avoid God. That is simply not a honest answer.

Dude, I just want to put bread on my table. I don’t care what caused the universe.

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Posted: 25 October 2009 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 08:23 PM

therefor, it remains God as the only rational answer to what was the cause of the universe.

The words “God” and “rational” in the same sentence? The irony is delicious, indeed.

Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 08:23 PM

” I don’t know ” is just a cheap escape to avoid God. That is simply not a honest answer.

And “God did it” is a cheap way to attempt to legitimize one’s ignorance, and the lack of a will to rectify said ignorance.

Oftentimes the most honest answer is that there is none. It takes a wise, mature person to realize, and admit, when they don’t know something, and occasionally realize and accept they may never know, if it so happens to be that way.

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“I’m materialist, I ain’t no deist! It’s there for all to see, so don’t talk of hidden mystery with me.”
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Posted: 26 October 2009 12:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 08:23 PM

” I don’t know ” is just a cheap escape to avoid God. That is simply not a honest answer.

No it is not. It is saying ‘we haven’t discovered yet’. You are not honest. You just throw in an an answer (‘God’) because you cannot live with insecurity.

GdB

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“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

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Posted: 26 October 2009 01:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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GdB - 26 October 2009 12:27 AM
Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 08:23 PM

” I don’t know ” is just a cheap escape to avoid God. That is simply not a honest answer.

No it is not. It is saying ‘we haven’t discovered yet’. You are not honest. You just throw in an an answer (‘God’) because you cannot live with insecurity.

Yep.  There’s absolutely nothing ‘dishonest’ about that answer when it comes to our knowledge of life’s mysteries.  We ‘don’t know’ a hell of a lot.  That’s simply the truth.

Now, if a person said “I don’t know if I believe in God”, one could make an argument that that is dishonest (or the person hasn’t thought it through).  Depending on what definition of ‘God’ is being used (isn’t that always the main issue?), you either have an active belief in there being a god/force/higher power and therefore have some kind of ‘relationship’ to it, or you lack that belief.  On the lack-of-belief side there are a few variations:  I lack belief because I’m not convinced or I actively believe that there are no gods.  Anyway….

people can label themselves whatever way they feel best represents them, but is there something wrong/incorrect about the simple division I’ve described above?

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Posted: 26 October 2009 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 08:23 PM

So , my question to you is : what makes you so sure, God does not exist ?

What makes you so sure that Santa Clause does not exist?

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Posted: 26 October 2009 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Pragmatic Naturalist - 26 October 2009 11:15 AM
Adonai888 - 24 October 2009 08:23 PM

So , my question to you is : what makes you so sure, God does not exist ?

What makes you so sure that Santa Clause does not exist?

i am actually sure, many Santa Clauses do exist. Every Xmas , they are spread all over the world, and make many children happy .

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