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Near-Death Experiences Prove God Exists
Posted: 27 October 2009 09:47 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Many cases have been reported in which dying persons viewed individuals, events, or circumstances in another place with amazing accuracy when they were comatose. In other words they reported independently corroborative data that would not normally have been in the range of their sense experience even if they were fully conscious at the time, in spite of the fact that they were near death or already pronounced dead. Some of these reports were investigated using rather ingenious controls and other quantitative data. This research found that at least some of these persons reported facts that they could not have known by natural means.

Another type of corroboration is from cases in which an individual, after a near-death experience, reports having just seen a loved one whom he claims was also deceased. In the more evidential cases, the loved one was not previously known to have been dead either by the one who was near death or in some cases by anyone immediately involved. As a result, the experiencer was sometimes so convicted that his entire attitude toward death was altered to a sense of peace, well-being, and even a desire to be with the loved one. Later it was discovered that the other individual had already died, sometimes at that very hour.

Some near-death experiences have been reported during the absence of brain waves. Eminent cardiologist Schoonmaker announced the results of his 18-year study of 1,400 near-death experiences, including those of about 55 persons whose experiences took place while flat EEG readings were recorded. [Gary R. Habermas: Some of this information was received from a personal interview with Fred Schoonmaker, June 1, 1982.]

The most vivid experiences these people had, many of which were also corroborative, occurred when their brains registered no known activity, sometimes for periods of 30 minutes to three hours. This is strong evidence that consciousness may exist after death. It is of course conceivable that the EEG may not in fact measure all brain activity (though at the present time the absence of brain wave function in the EEG is both the best and the most widely accepted definition of brain death).

Independently corroborative experiences and testing also compliment each other. While there was no brain or heart activity, individuals have reported near-death experiences that were independently verified by others, even over a distance. A woman with a flat EEG reading and no vital signs had been declared dead. She spontaneously revived about three and one-half hours later. She reported floating above her body during the resuscitation attempts. She described precisely the procedures used to try to rescue her, how many persons came into the room, what was said (she even related a joke that was told to relieve the tension), and most interestingly, she reported the designs on the doctors’ ties. All of this information was carefully checked with the medical records and with the doctors who were present, and it was discovered that her total description was correct, even though her EEG reading was flat during this time. [This specific case is reported by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. For example see her essay “The Experience of Death,” in The Vestibule, ed. Jess Weiss (New York: Pocket Books, 1972), pp. 57-64; cf. “Life after Death?” Newsweek, July 12, 1976, p. 41.]

This combination of flat EEG readings and empirically corroborative scientific data presents strong evidence for at least a minimalistic view of life after death, which disproves a major pillar of naturalistic thought. In fact even the many other cases of clinical (or reversible) death that are accompanied by corroboration, sometimes of a rather spectacular variety, are also good evidence since these verified observations themselves are unexplained in known natural terms and because they evidence consciousness beyond the initial states of death. Therefore while irreversible death has obviously not occurred in these instances, the crucial point is that these occurrences are not explained by any known bodily function, since clinical death (and sometimes brain inactivity) has already occurred. This consciousness presents evidence strong enough to indicate a probable case for the initial stages of life after death.

This minimalistic life, however, is not a detailed heavenly existence; irreversible death is not required in order to establish the point being made here. Rather, if the brain is not functioning (or is otherwise unable to account for the corroborated phenomena in question) and the person is still verifiably conscious during that time, then such is minimalistic life at that moment. Thus if veridical consciousness is both separate from and extends beyond brain activity, there is no reason to think that, just because the latter has not irreversibly ceased, one can somehow magically account for this life by naturalistic means. Since such intellectual faculties therefore exist independent of brain activity (and even when it has momentarily ceased), there is no viable reason to assume that the permanent cessation of brain activity would affect personal consciousness. This data actually provides strong evidence for consciousness beyond death precisely because such has both survived temporary brain cessation and cannot be explained by normal bodily activity anyway.

In an article in The Humanist, Beloff argued that the evidence is strong enough that even humanists should admit survival after death and try to interpret it in naturalistic terms. Perhaps this signals a new shift in attitude on this subject. Beloff stated that the evidence points to a “dualistic world where mind or spirit has an existence separate from the world of material things.” [Notice Beloff confuses mind with spirit, when the Bible treats the mind of the soul distinct from the spirit.] He admitted that this could “present a challenge to Humanism as profound in its own way as that which Darwinian Evolution did to Christianity a century ago.” Yet, he added, naturalists “cannot afford to close our minds . . . to the possibility of some kind of survival [mechanism to maintain life after the death]” [John Beloff, as cited in David Winter, Hereafter What Happens after Death (Wheaton, IL Harold Shaw Publishers, 1972), pp. 33-34.]

In an American Psychological Association convention a panel discussed the nature of near-death experiences. Only one of the panelists, UCLA psychologist Ronald Siegel, held that those could be explained totally by natural means. However, when challenged later by cardiologist Michael Sabom to explain his then unpublished corroborative accounts by naturalistic means, Siegel responded that he was unable to do so. The other panel members agreed that neardeath research points to or provides evidence for a spiritual realm and life after death. [Near-Death Experiences Defy Single Explanation,” Brain-Mind Bulletin, September 14,1981, pp. 1,3.]

[ Edited: 27 October 2009 10:16 PM by Parture ]
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4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible

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Posted: 28 October 2009 04:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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For a more competent rundown on the literature on NDEs (Near Death Experiences), see HERE and the links at the bottom of the page.

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Doug

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Posted: 28 October 2009 04:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Basically the argument seems to be:
Unexplained NDEs ==> souls exist ==> a god exists.

Neither step in that sequence works.

As I see it:
Unexplained NDEs ==> more research required.

The first step is to be able to reliably and safely induce NDEs. 
The next step would be to perform double-blind testing.
That might lead to proof of “sensing while near death”.
It might lead to proof of something separate and mobile like a soul.
I’m not holding my breath, but if it happens I’m sure it will be all over the news.

Going from there to a god seems to be a stretch.  A soul is no more proof of a god than ants are.  By the way, how awesome is that god if this is the best or only way you have to prove it exists?

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Posted: 28 October 2009 06:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Yep, NDEs are fascinating because of what they tell us about the evolution of consciousness.  But proof that God exists?  I don’t think so.

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Posted: 28 October 2009 07:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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NDEs prove that god exists? Which one? Christians often “see” Jesus and Muslims “see” Mohammad. Why is that, Parture?

[ Edited: 28 October 2009 07:17 AM by George ]
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Posted: 28 October 2009 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Once you establish God exists through near-death experiences then figure out who is God, you know it is God of the Bible because Muhammad lied saying Jesus didn’ die on the cross with nothing to support his claim six centurise later. that’s the evidence. I am never personally going to be able verify a near death experience, so at best I can observe from afar the studies, but if the controls are tight enough and there is no other explanation we can come up as is the case in some cases by all accounts, then this proves consciousness beyond death. The atheist says this is just another survival technique on man’s part so still no need for God, but that is reaching. We call this the supernatural domain of God.

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Posted: 28 October 2009 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Parture - 28 October 2009 03:13 PM

Once you establish God exists through near-death experiences then figure out who is God, you know it is God of the Bible because Muhammad lied saying Jesus didn’ die on the cross with nothing to support his claim six centurise later. that’s the evidence. I am never personally going to be able verify a near death experience, so at best I can observe from afar the studies, but if the controls are tight enough and there is no other explanation we can come up as is the case in some cases by all accounts, then this proves consciousness beyond death. The atheist says this is just another survival technique on man’s part so still no need for God, but that is reaching. We call this the supernatural domain of God.

How so? By definition, no one actually died. Hence the “near” in NDE. Just in case you want to say that they did die, I’ll remind you that they are NDEs not resurrections.

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Posted: 28 October 2009 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Kaizen - 28 October 2009 03:48 PM

How so? By definition, no one actually died. Hence the “near” in NDE. Just in case you want to say that they did die, I’ll remind you that they are NDEs not resurrections.

By all medical instruments we have to measure brain activity, etc. they were clinically dead, specifically those cases that ranged from 1/2 hour to 3 hours. They don’t have to remain dead to prove they are alive; all they need do is come back to life after all known instruments indicate they have been dead. This is not a resurrection, because a resurrection is with a body then can never die.

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Posted: 28 October 2009 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Parture - 28 October 2009 03:57 PM

By all medical instruments we have to measure brain activity, etc. they were clinically dead, specifically those cases that ranged from 1/2 hour to 3 hours. They don’t have to remain dead to prove they are alive; all they need do is come back to life after all known instruments indicate they have been dead. This is not a resurrection, because a resurrection is with a body then can never die.

Clearly there’s a difference between in the term “death” when we compare those that stay dead and those that are “clinically” dead for a few hours. Isn’t it interesting that people aren’t “clinically” dead for several years? You again are manipulating yourself by trying to marry two separate definitions into one word for the purpose of using a definition out of context to support your presuppositions.

[ Edited: 28 October 2009 04:26 PM by Kaizen ]
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Posted: 28 October 2009 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Kaizen - 28 October 2009 04:06 PM

Clearly there’s a difference between in the term “death” when we compare those that stay dead and those that are “clinically” dead for a few hours. Isn’t it interesting that people aren’t “clinically” dead for several years? You again are manipulating yourself by trying to marry two separate definitions into one word for the purpose of using a definition out of context to support your presuppositions.

We are talking clinically dead within the time frame befor brain damage can occur. Your petty self is just overlooking this fact.

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Posted: 28 October 2009 06:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Parture - 28 October 2009 03:13 PM

Once you establish God exists through near-death experiences then figure out who is God, you know it is God of the Bible because Muhammad lied saying Jesus didn’ die… [bla, bla, bla]

Do you think Jesus is dressing up as Mohammad when Muslims experience NDE and get to meet him at the end of the tunnel?

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Posted: 28 October 2009 06:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Parture you need to get your information from more reliable sources. Tests that measure brain activity such as EMG’s are rarely if ever done on someone to determine if they are clinically dead. Such studies are usually not done until a day or two after the patient has become unresponsive. I can virtually guarantee that anyone who has a cardiac arrest and has been “dead” from a cardiac point of view ( ie no spontaneous heartbeat) for 1-3 hours and then recovers, has not had any medical study to prove brain death at that point. In these situations a decision as to whether the person is dead or not is made entirely on the basis of whether the individual has a spontaneous heartbeat, not through the performance of an EMG, MRI, CT or any other neurological study.

Even in cases where a person is determined to be brain dead, and again we are talking about people who have been in a coma for at least a day or two, these studies can NOT prove that there is no brain activity. Such studies can only tell us that the level of brain activity is below a certain threshold usually required for recovery of consciousness. As I said though, the people you are referring to who have presented in cardiac arrest and then recovered have most likely NOT had any such study done.

[ Edited: 28 October 2009 06:55 PM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 28 October 2009 08:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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George - 28 October 2009 06:12 PM

Do you think Jesus is dressing up as Mohammad when Muslims experience NDE and get to meet him at the end of the tunnel?

Evil spirit poses as Muhammad. Muhammad is dead. You can’t see him when you die. He is waiting to be resurrection for Hell after the 1000 years.

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Posted: 28 October 2009 08:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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macgyver - 28 October 2009 06:31 PM

Parture you need to get your information from more reliable sources. Tests that measure brain activity such as EMG’s are rarely if ever done on someone to determine if they are clinically dead. Such studies are usually not done until a day or two after the patient has become unresponsive. I can virtually guarantee that anyone who has a cardiac arrest and has been “dead” from a cardiac point of view ( ie no spontaneous heartbeat) for 1-3 hours and then recovers, has not had any medical study to prove brain death at that point. In these situations a decision as to whether the person is dead or not is made entirely on the basis of whether the individual has a spontaneous heartbeat, not through the performance of an EMG, MRI, CT or any other neurological study.

Even in cases where a person is determined to be brain dead, and again we are talking about people who have been in a coma for at least a day or two, these studies can NOT prove that there is no brain activity. Such studies can only tell us that the level of brain activity is below a certain threshold usually required for recovery of consciousness. As I said though, the people you are referring to who have presented in cardiac arrest and then recovered have most likely NOT had any such study done.

I am only concerned with cases where such work was done on such individuals to confirm their death they had no brain waves. They awake and give us information they could not have known unless they were alive after they died.

And the only cases are those clinically dead between 1/2 hour and 3 hours.

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Posted: 29 October 2009 03:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I am very suspicious that such studies were ever done. And as I said, even if they were they prove nothing because flat EEG’s do not prove a lack of brain activity. There really is no way to ‘prove’ that no brain activity is occurring. How would you do that? How would you ever be able to confirm that a particular test proved that nothing was going on in the brain? Its not possible. You might theoretically come up with a test that could show complete cellular death had occurred and infer from that that no activity was going on but such a test does not currently exist.

The very fact that people claim to have had experiences during a time when their EEG tracing was presumably flat ( and I’ll wait for you to provide the research paper in a peer reviewed journal which supports your claim) is not proof of god or an afterlife. A more logical and likely conclusion is that this is proof that a flat EEG is not consistent with lack of brain activity.

[ Edited: 29 October 2009 05:04 AM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 29 October 2009 05:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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You have to examine the the best cases yourself.

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