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Near-Death Experiences Prove God Exists
Posted: 29 October 2009 07:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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My dad had a death experience, he was dead for like a second or so when his lungs collapsed. He said nothing spectacular happened. He was in a coma for three days, he never saw any light or out of body experiences.

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In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. Friedrich Nietzsche

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Posted: 29 October 2009 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Psychmajor,

NDEs do happen though. My uncle survived a plain crash and was dead for almost a half an hour. He “saw” the tunnel, my dead grandfather, some of his dead friends, etc. I guess the fact that some people do have NDEs and others don’t only shows us that they are nothing more than a reaction of a dying brain.

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Posted: 29 October 2009 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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I think it is all what you believe and what you “want” to see.

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In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. Friedrich Nietzsche

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Posted: 29 October 2009 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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perfect - 29 October 2009 05:53 AM

You have to examine the the best cases yourself.

What are you referring to? Reading individual case reports of these sorts of things will not shed much light on the origin of these phenomenon.  Every description I have ever read of an near death experience was far from objective. They are often laden with individual observer bias which always makes the facts of the case suspect. Stories of people seeing or hearing something that they couldn’t have possibly heard or seen if they hadn’t left their bodies are never done under controlled situations where the facts can be verified. We are left to “trust’ the people who are reporting the incident. Thats not nearly enough proof to make me believe in something that makes no rational sense.

If you are a rational person you will come away with the conclusion that these cases prove nothing. A religious person sees proof of their deity’s existence in everything. Examining “the best cases” wont change that at all.

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Posted: 29 October 2009 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Psychmajor - 29 October 2009 07:36 AM

I think it is all what you believe and what you “want” to see.

I doubt one has any choice over any of this. I am sure my uncle didn’t exactly want to see any of this, since these kind of things are usually regarded with scorn in my country and my family. Indeed, it took him many year after the accident to tell us about his NDE.

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Posted: 29 October 2009 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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sorry I shouldn’t have said want as in meaning he choose what he experienced. More in as the things we are familiar with, someone who wants god to exist, will see a light or heaven or god.

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In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. Friedrich Nietzsche

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Posted: 29 October 2009 08:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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George - 29 October 2009 07:59 AM
Psychmajor - 29 October 2009 07:36 AM

I think it is all what you believe and what you “want” to see.

I doubt one has any choice over any of this. I am sure my uncle didn’t exactly want to see any of this, since these kind of things are usually regarded with scorn in my country and my family. Indeed, it took him many year after the accident to tell us about his NDE.

I am not really sure what you are arguing for about?? Are you just looking for an argument?

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In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. Friedrich Nietzsche

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Posted: 29 October 2009 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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I just wanted to point out that Parture’s initial post is copied and pasted from here… http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3348 —is this legal?

Also, I just did a google search of this “eminent cardiologist Schoonmaker” and came up with zilch.  You want to back up your statements, Mr. Parture?

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Posted: 29 October 2009 08:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Psychmajor - 29 October 2009 08:17 AM

sorry I shouldn’t have said want as in meaning he choose what he experienced. More in as the things we are familiar with, someone who wants god to exist, will see a light or heaven or god.

Yes, but it is interesting, that my uncle who has a definite distaste with anything that can be described as “spiritual” (I don’t think he ever even read a novel LOL ) still had a NDE.

[ Edited: 29 October 2009 08:28 AM by George ]
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Posted: 29 October 2009 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Psychmajor - 29 October 2009 08:19 AM
George - 29 October 2009 07:59 AM
Psychmajor - 29 October 2009 07:36 AM

I think it is all what you believe and what you “want” to see.

I doubt one has any choice over any of this. I am sure my uncle didn’t exactly want to see any of this, since these kind of things are usually regarded with scorn in my country and my family. Indeed, it took him many year after the accident to tell us about his NDE.

I am not really sure what you are arguing for about?? Are you just looking for an argument?

question

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Posted: 06 November 2009 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Parture - 27 October 2009 09:47 PM

Some near-death experiences have been reported during the absence of brain waves. Eminent cardiologist Schoonmaker announced the results of his 18-year study of 1,400 near-death experiences, including those of about 55 persons whose experiences took place while flat EEG readings were recorded. [Gary R. Habermas: Some of this information was received from a personal interview with Fred Schoonmaker, June 1, 1982.]

This is something I would like clarified.  It was my understanding that no one had ever been revived after being brain dead.  I tried to find out more, but my Google search of “emininent cardiologist Schoonmaker” only turned up a copy and paste of this same quote from a Christian forum.

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Posted: 06 November 2009 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robin.brace/NDE.htm

http://www.ukapologetics.net/07/mindandbody.htm

Some of the most interesting information on verifiable after-death consciousness experiences has been gathered by Dr Melvin Morse who is Associate Professor of Pediatrics at The University of Washington. Dr Morse has studied near-death experiences in children for 15 years and is the author of several books on the subject. In 1982, while a Fellow for the National Cancer Institute, Dr. Morse was working in a clinic in Pocatello, Idaho. He was called to revive a young girl who nearly died in a community swimming pool. She had had no heart beat for 19 minutes, yet completely recovered. She was able to recount many details of her own resuscitation, and then said that she was taken down a brick lined tunnel to a heavenly place. When Dr. Morse showed his obvious skepticism, she patted him shyly on the hand and said: “Don’t worry, Dr. Morse, heaven is fun!.” She told the doctor that she had met Jesus and that, “He is nice!” (More information on the work of Dr Morse can be found here: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts06.html. Again, we do not necessarily support everything on any other website).

[ Edited: 06 November 2009 09:36 AM by Adonai888 ]
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Posted: 06 November 2009 10:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Adonai888 - 06 November 2009 09:32 AM

When Dr. Morse showed his obvious skepticism, she patted him shyly on the hand and said: “Don’t worry, Dr. Morse, heaven is fun!.”.

Abracadabra, Dr. Morse was no longer skeptical.  grin

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Posted: 07 November 2009 07:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Adonai888 - 06 November 2009 09:32 AM

“verifiable after-death consciousness experiences…”

That’s the real question here, isnt’ it?  NDEs are undoubtedly real phenomena, but they are only reported by people who are ALIVE.  Is there actual evidence that the event did happen while the person was dead?  The only way to be sure would be for the person to report the event while they were dead not after they revived.  I realize that sounds a little silly.  How are they supposed to report this?  But if an immaterial consciousness is capable of sensing and perceiving the world around it without a physical body, it’s not to much to ask that it could somehow communicate this to another person without vocal cords.  wink

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Posted: 07 November 2009 03:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Adonai, I’ve read a number of your posts in several threads*, and I have a question for you.  If you are wrong, do you want to know that?  Specifically, if near-death experiences are not actually spiritual events, but just some poorly understood neuro-chemical phenomenon, do you want to know that?  Would you want to know if some research were done that showed that the tales of near-death people were incorrect, or just implausible?  And if an experiment to determine this conclusively could be devised with your input, would you accept the results if they showed that NDEs were not real?

More generally, if you are wrong about Christianity, either because Islam is the right religion, or Scientology is, or because atheists are right, or because nobody on Earth has yet figured out how things really work, would you want to know that?  I think that most of the atheists against whom you rail would, honestly, want to know if they were wrong about there not being a god.  They might be shocked, dismayed, and/or chagrined, but at the end of the day, they’d want to know.  And, of course, they’d want to avoid going to hell for all eternity, if that were part of the theology of whatever god or gods exist.  But would you want to know if you were wrong, no matter how improbable that might be?


*I haven’t read all of them, so I apologize if you’ve already been asked this and answered it.

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