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The Bible as Myth and History
Posted: 03 December 2009 06:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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Ecrasez

Gary, your points in your latest post seem particularly vacuous - or am I missing something. Perhaps you have run out of things to say. Your obvious disdain for education suggests the source of your shallow interpretation of the Bible and its influence - a pity

You are not the first one to cut and run when they have no answers to arguments except to insult.  Your arrogant elitism does rankle. I don’t have a disdain for education, just a disdain for the academic bureaucracy’s lack of responsibility for what they think others should be taught.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Actually Lausten, who is an attorney would be better versed than myself to discuss this issue,

I think the Minnesota Bar Association would take issue with this. I don’t have anything to add to the question of the origin of Western law.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 06:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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As for Dylan, there’s no doubt enough of his work has reflections of biblical inspirations, so as to make Gary’s claim plausible. Besides there’s more to it than just Highway 61, and Knockin’.
At least 1/4 of John Wesley Harding has strange biblical allusions.
Oh, Sister.
I Shall Be Released.
Gates of Eden.
Gospel Plow.
See That My Grave is Kept Clean.
Many other songs mention religious themes.
Didn’t he put out an album entitled “Saved”? Didn’t Bob get Born Again? I thought he did, I could be wrong.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 06:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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.ciceronianus:

Constantine is interesting. It seems that, for most of his reign, he supported whatever religious view which he felt would create an advantage for him. He was a big fan of Sol Invictus as well as Christ. I tend to think he saw they way things were going, and acted accordingly, to secure his position and that of his heirs in empire. So, he not only tolerated Christianity, but was its patron, always trying to unite the various Christian factions so intent on killing and oppressing each over things like the nature of the substance of Christ and his relation to the Father when not killing or oppressing pagans and Jews

.

In my reading several years ago I came across this explanation of Constantine’s conversion,  sorry I cannot locate the book right now, I may have given it away.

The basic thesis, as I remember it, was that Constantine had a need to move the capital of the Empire from Rome to the eastern part of the empire as the Persian were regarded as the main threat of the time.  The Senate (whose members still followed the old religion at this time) in Rome was opposed to this move and the Senate controlled most of the scribes and other bureaucrats that normally ran the day to day affairs of the Empire through their patronage networks.  Constantine, to overcome this problem built the city of Constantinople as a Christian City to neutralize the Senate in Rome, undermine the Senators claim to legitimacy based upon the old religion, and to take advantage of the availability of scribes and bureaucrats that had gained their training and experience in administering the Christian Church which was much stronger in the eastern areas of the Empire.  (He did have a major problem with the internal divisions within Christianity, that hasn‘t changed much.)

This at least sounds reasonable.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 06:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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OK, I was wrong about Dylan. I got to looking at my collection last night and y’all are right. His music is heavily influenced by the Bible. Seeing as how I have long maintained Bob Dylan is the best poet* in American history I may need to rethink my position on the Bible influencing popular music.

* The best poet. He’s in the top 10 as a songwriter, but as a poet Dylan is the best.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 06:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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Yes, Dylan’s “Saved” and “Slow Train Coming” Albums are direct contributions coming from an artist who was recently “born again”.
They both contain direct lyrical content concerning the gospel, and salvation. There are others as well.
But this is all secondary. Even before Dylan went with it, his earliest works, on into his greatest stuff, are generously sprinkled with allegory and mystical, biblical hints. That’s without even “interpreting” said works.
Gary’s points concerning the influence of the bible in our culture is extremely relevant. In fact it is almost just plain extreme.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 06:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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ciceronianus:

I just remembered, I think this came from Michael Grant’s “Constantine the Great”

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Posted: 03 December 2009 06:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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fotobits - 03 December 2009 06:37 PM

OK, I was wrong about Dylan. I got to looking at my collection last night and y’all are right. His music is heavily influenced by the Bible. Seeing as how I have long maintained Bob Dylan is the best poet* in American history I may need to rethink my position on the Bible influencing popular music.

* The best poet. He’s in the top 10 as a songwriter, but as a poet Dylan is the best.

Oh you got that right! Dylan is The Master. I know you like alot of good music Foto. We wouldn’t have 1/4 of our favorite stuff if it wasn’t for Dylan.
I’d say at least Top 5 for songwriting myself.(in my own opinion though, he is No.1) And that goes for songwriting of all time. Not just Folk-Rock-Pop. Lyrics. Is that what you meant by Poetry?
Yes, you have to rethink that. Is it a good/bad contribution? (the bible contributing to music) Who knows? It is what it is. I guess I wouldn’t have it any other way.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 07:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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Best songwriters of all time:
Lennon/McCartney
Guy Clark
Townes Van Zandt
Bob Dylan
Dan Hicks
Paul Simon
Bruce Robison
Buck Owens
Delbert McClinton
several dozen tied at #10

This list is subject to change at my whim, and is heavily influenced by moods, alcohol, weather, sleep deprivation and what I have listened to lately.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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I’ll say again - this thread has run its course and is no longer interesting, oh you dribbling faithful!  This, particularly when Vyazma starts claiming some sort of advantage in being a blue-collar worker as he/she does in almost all threads in which he/she is involved - who cares!  If you filled your truck with steelworkers and drove off the Peace Bridge, like lawyers in a bus who go off a cliff the only tragedy would be that there were so few of you.

Here are some great videos (and other stuff) on the “Bullshit Bible”:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=009_1198085630
http://isnrblog.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/more-proof-the-bible-is-bull-shit/
http://unministry.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-bible-is-bullshit.html
http://public.fotki.com/harwons/cartoons-against-re/  see, especially bible bullshit: http://public.fotki.com/harwons/cartoons-against-re/biblebullshit.html
http://public.fotki.com/harwons/cartoons-against-re/bibleadvisory.html
http://www.lyricstime.com/house-of-krazees-the-bible-is-bullshit-lyrics.html

The Bible is Bullshit (Lyrics)

Christians murdered indians
Christians murdered indians

In the history of the human race
Of all the inspirations for the separation of man from his true tribal culture
Of all the inspirations for acts of violence from one man onto another,
From one nation onto another, from one oppressor onto the oppressed.
There is no more guilty party and inspiration than those books known
As the holy bible the Koran and the bhagavad gita to spread separation of mankind.

The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

They took away our love and gave us fear
Tried to make us hate the one who put us here
Then they took our sacred songs and made them wrong
Then they took away our prayers and gave us theirs

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

First they created sin so they could win
Then they built the cages they could put us in
Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
Then they took away the earth and gave us hell

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

It’s time for you to love one another
It’s time for you recognize your brother
It’s time for us to stop killing our mother
It’s time for us to care for each other

The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit

It’s time for you to love one another
It’s time for you recognize your brother
It’s time for us to stop killing our mother
It’s time for us to take care of each other
It’s time for you to love one another
It’s time for you recognize your brother
It’s time for us to stop killing our mother
It’s time for us to take care of each other

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

They took away our love and gave us fear
Tried to make us hate the one who put us here
Then they took our sacred songs and made them wrong
Then they took away our prayers and gave us theirs

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

First they created sin so they could win
Then they built the cages they could put us in
Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
Then they took away the earth and gave us hell

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

It’s time for you to love one another
It’s time for you recognize your brother
It’s time for us to stop killing our mother
It’s time for us to care for eachother

The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit

[ Edited: 03 December 2009 07:35 PM by Fat Man ]
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Posted: 03 December 2009 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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Ecrasez l’infame! - 03 December 2009 07:33 PM

I’ll say again - this thread has run its course and is no longer interesting.  This, particularly when Vyazma starts claiming some sort of advantage in being a blue-collar worker as he/she does in almost all threads in which he/she is involved - who cares!  If you filled your truck with steelworkers and drove off the Peace Bridge, like lawyers in a bus who go off a cliff the only tragedy would be that there were so few of you.

Here are some great videos on the “Bullshit Bible”:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=009_1198085630
http://isnrblog.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/more-proof-the-bible-is-bull-shit/
http://unministry.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-bible-is-bullshit.html
http://public.fotki.com/harwons/cartoons-against-re/  see, especially bible bullshit: http://public.fotki.com/harwons/cartoons-against-re/biblebullshit.html
http://public.fotki.com/harwons/cartoons-against-re/bibleadvisory.html
http://www.lyricstime.com/house-of-krazees-the-bible-is-bullshit-lyrics.html

The Bible is Bullshit (Lyrics)

Christians murdered indians
Christians murdered indians

In the history of the human race
Of all the inspirations for the separation of man from his true tribal culture
Of all the inspirations for acts of violence from one man onto another,
From one nation onto another, from one oppressor onto the oppressed.
There is no more guilty party and inspiration than those books known
As the holy bible the Koran and the bhagavad gita to spread separation of mankind.

The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

They took away our love and gave us fear
Tried to make us hate the one who put us here
Then they took our sacred songs and made them wrong
Then they took away our prayers and gave us theirs

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

First they created sin so they could win
Then they built the cages they could put us in
Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
Then they took away the earth and gave us hell

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

It’s time for you to love one another
It’s time for you recognize your brother
It’s time for us to stop killing our mother
It’s time for us to care for each other

The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit

It’s time for you to love one another
It’s time for you recognize your brother
It’s time for us to stop killing our mother
It’s time for us to take care of each other
It’s time for you to love one another
It’s time for you recognize your brother
It’s time for us to stop killing our mother
It’s time for us to take care of each other

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

They took away our love and gave us fear
Tried to make us hate the one who put us here
Then they took our sacred songs and made them wrong
Then they took away our prayers and gave us theirs

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

First they created sin so they could win
Then they built the cages they could put us in
Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
Then they took away the earth and gave us hell

The bible is bullshit, the Koran is a lie, the bhagavad gita did not fall from the sky
These are the books that were written by men.
They’ve caused wars, now follow if you can,

It’s time for you to love one another
It’s time for you recognize your brother
It’s time for us to stop killing our mother
It’s time for us to care for eachother

The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit
The bible is bullshit, the bible is bullshit

Hey this is great! I bet you don’t even realize that this works drastically against your credibility. No you probably don’t.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 08:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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garythehuman - 03 December 2009 05:46 PM

The fact is that atheism is one of the core principles of Marxist-Leninism and while these two may not have acted in “the name of atheism” they were very much atheists and they persecuted the religious they were afraid that religious would oppose their attempts to control their societies.

No, they did not persecute in the name of atheism, they persecuted anyone who threatened their acquisition and consolidation of power. If atheist had been organized in any way, they would have been persecuted and annihilated as well.

Your statement regarding Nuclear arms…. is a straw man argument, the sustaining water you drink can also drown you

.

Humans did not create water which cannot destroy the entire human race in a very short period of time (unless you believe in the flood myths, cool smirk ) science has created nuclear weapons which can destroy all human civilization within days if not hours.  Point being that science and technology is a two edged sword as is religion.

Breathing is a two edged sword, so is life…so what?

Can you name another source of tradition that average citizens as a group would be enough familiar with to have a discussion such as we are having here?

So if the average person is not familiar with it, it can be discounted???


Actually, in the US outlaw is based mostly on English common law and this was base more on Celtic and other early tribal traditions of justice and rule by council rather than Roman law, which is more influential in Southern Europe.  Actually Lausten, who is an attorney would be better versed than myself to discuss this issue,

Okay, I’ll give you that, but the common law’s formation was influenced by Norman and Roman law as well as the clerical.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 08:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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I’ll say again - this thread has run its course and is no longer interesting, oh you dribbling faithful!

Yet you keep posting. I’m not so much asking as wondering aloud, why would you write a post like that? It is pretty obvious that everyone participating here has seen stuff like that before.

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Posted: 03 December 2009 11:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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dougsmith - 19 November 2009 08:38 AM

So, basically, it’s a form of Deism, along the lines of Einstein, (arguably) Sagan? I think of them as basically accepting forms of Spinozistic Deism.

I don’t really have any particular arguments against that. But since a Deistic God isn’t a person and doesn’t demand or require worship, the question remains about why involve it in religion at all? As I’ve suggested, perhaps that’s for social or psychological reasons (to feel comforted in a group, maybe to enjoy the music of the choir). But otherwise, there’s really no religious point to it.

Is it possible to say that Spinoza’s Deity is accessible through thought? We know that at a subatomic level the observer /participant may well have an influence. Is it possible that prayer, meditation, ritual are designed to focus the mind and allow it to access the Deity in some way? If that is the case, mass prayer and ritual may serve to reinforce each other.

[ Edited: 04 December 2009 12:05 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 04 December 2009 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Write4U - 03 December 2009 11:59 PM
dougsmith - 19 November 2009 08:38 AM

So, basically, it’s a form of Deism, along the lines of Einstein, (arguably) Sagan? I think of them as basically accepting forms of Spinozistic Deism.

I don’t really have any particular arguments against that. But since a Deistic God isn’t a person and doesn’t demand or require worship, the question remains about why involve it in religion at all? As I’ve suggested, perhaps that’s for social or psychological reasons (to feel comforted in a group, maybe to enjoy the music of the choir). But otherwise, there’s really no religious point to it.

Is it possible to say that Spinoza’s Deity is accessible through thought? We know that at a subatomic level the observer /participant may well have an influence. Is it possible that prayer, meditation, ritual are designed to focus the mind and allow it to access the Deity in some way? If that is the case, mass prayer and ritual may serve to reinforce each other.

For Spinoza and the rationalists generally, their form of God (basically the laws of nature) was accessed through reason, which was one of the faculties of thought. That is not the same as prayer or ritual, and so far as I can see it, would only be the same as meditation if that meditation were guided by reason itself. Prayer and ritual are inherently not reasoned processes. One is a sort of petition, which would be irrational of a non-personal God that was equivalent to the laws of nature, and the other is a sort of repeated gesture, meaningless outside of some religious context.

I also disagree with the implication that prayer or ritual has anything whatever to do with quantum mechanics. The observer, simply by observing, does not have “influence” over subatomic particles in any meaningful sense. On one controversial interpretation, an observation causes a collapse of the wave function to a specific value, but it doesn’t determine to which value the function will collapse.

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