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Swiss Minaret Ban
Posted: 04 December 2009 10:19 AM   [ Ignore ]
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I was just curious what everyone’s thoughts are about the ban.

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Posted: 04 December 2009 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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I am also curious what my thoughts on this issue are. cheese But I still haven’t figured it out—I am going to have to sleep on it for a few days.

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Posted: 04 December 2009 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Seems pointless to me, and discriminatory to boot. Why ban only constructions from one religion?

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Posted: 04 December 2009 10:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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dougsmith - 04 December 2009 10:27 AM

Seems pointless to me, and discriminatory to boot. Why ban only constructions from one religion?

I agree with you Doug. Although I’m not in favour of banning construction of any religious buildings, unless we’re talking about public funds being used.

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Posted: 04 December 2009 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Well, it certainly wouldn’t work in the U.S., and it is discriminatory.  I have a certain sympathy with those who think it is improper to move to another country and demand that it conform to one’s customs, particularly one’s religious customs, but that doesn’t seem to be the case in this instance.

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Posted: 04 December 2009 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Gehnan - 04 December 2009 10:33 AM

Although I’m not in favour of banning construction of any religious buildings, unless we’re talking about public funds being used.

Right.

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Posted: 04 December 2009 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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The banning of the minarets in Switzerland has obviously very little to do with religion. (Just like religion itself has probably very little to with religion.)

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Posted: 04 December 2009 06:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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If were Muslim, I would move further South as Ramadan moves closer to Mid June, and further North as Ramadan gets closer to December.  So when it falls in December, I would live somewhere like Alaska or Sweden so that the period of daylight is shorter on Ramadan, making the period of fasting shorter.  So, instead of building minarets in Sweden, it would be better to have portable ones and just work out some deal to have them allow me to temporarily set them up.

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Posted: 04 December 2009 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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I personally was overjoyed to see this taking place in Switzerland. These structures are not indigenous to that land. They are boisterous, and look foreboding. Add to that the obvious negative connotations of islam and it’s a win-win. These religions are spreading. Spreading! Minarets are not indigenous to those parts. The folks want them out. Good!
The Swiss have their idyllic ideas about religion, they don’t need outside religions coming in and erecting towers up in the city centers.
These lawmakers are obviously, and rightly concerned about the spread of islam. Just like other European nations having to contend with sharia laws, and pleas for exemptions to otherwise normal social mores.

Once when I was cooking at a Hotel in Bavaria, we had a group of Albanians come in. Refugees essentially from the Bosnia-Serbia affair. One became a dishwasher.
One time I took a break and headed back to the restroom only to find this Albanian washing his feet in the one and only handsink in the restroom. There he was, one leg up like a ballerina washing his smelly foot in the sink. I came in and he smiled at me like it was no big deal. I was furious. We couldn’t communicate at all, but he got the message. He tried to convey to me it was prayer time and so on.
I returned to the kitchen and promptly notified the head chef. Word got around. Needless to say most of my co-workers were also not happy with this. That guy didn’t last another 2 weeks of employment there.
What would you have done?
Speaking of feet. A few years later I was inspecting utility poles in NC. I had to follow the transmission lines wherever they went. Onto peoples property. The line went onto this pretty good sized catfish farm. I was doing my work when the owner came up to me from across the field and ponds. This guy starts in with the proselytizing. I mean big time! He was a mennonite. He pointed out his family up near the house all hanging clothes on the line. There were definitely multiple wives or consorts. It was weird. They had on “The Little House on the Prairie” get up.
The guy proceeds to beg me to let him wash my feet. He wanted to save me after I told him I was an atheist. The tradition of his church is to wash another persons feet- a kind of cleansing/salvation.(like the bible or whatever.)
I didn’t know what to say. I couldn’t get out of there fast enough. I said, “No, you aint gonna wash my feet dude! Get real!” The guy was persistent. I told him I had to keep moving on. This was after an hour or so. The guy had me with his conversational skills like a car salesman. It took everything I had to break loose.
What would you have done?

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Posted: 05 December 2009 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I am against any kind of religion, but if the muslims pretend minarets in Switzerland, they should allow building Budda statues in Egipt and christian chapels in Saudi Arabia.

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Posted: 06 December 2009 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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jls7227 - 05 December 2009 01:08 PM

I am against any kind of religion, but if the muslims pretend minarets in Switzerland, they should allow building Budda statues in Egipt and christian chapels in Saudi Arabia.

Who is “they”? The very well integrated Muslims in Switzerland? Here in CH we have not more problems with Muslims than with Christians. There are problems with foreigners, of course, but not because they are Muslims. Now we might get problems.

I do not belong to any religion, but believe in the secular state, to which belongs that people are free to practice any religion, as long as they keep to the law, and everybody is equal in this respect. So consistently, we should forbid church towers too. In the end, church towers are also symbols of the power of the church.

GdB

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Posted: 06 December 2009 07:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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GdB - 06 December 2009 07:37 AM
jls7227 - 05 December 2009 01:08 PM

I am against any kind of religion, but if the muslims pretend minarets in Switzerland, they should allow building Budda statues in Egipt and christian chapels in Saudi Arabia.

Who is “they”? The very well integrated Muslims in Switzerland? Here in CH we have not more problems with Muslims than with Christians. There are problems with foreigners, of course, but not because they are Muslims. Now we might get problems.

I do not belong to any religion, but believe in the secular state, to which belongs that people are free to practice any religion, as long as they keep to the law, and everybody is equal in this respect. So consistently, we should forbid church towers too. In the end, church towers are also symbols of the power of the church.

GdB

And this means what GdB? Is a country or city to be held hostage by the possible outcomes of it’s legislation? Legislation that is legally binding within that city or country?
This is directly related to the issues Ibn Warraq brought up earlier. The issue of not being afraid to confront certain “idiosyncrasies”.
After all GdB you just said: ” Now we might get problems”. That’s just how the Mafia operated in many of our cities here in America.
“You let my cousin’s Garbage Hauling Business operate in this town, or there’s going to be big problems!”

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Posted: 06 December 2009 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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We might get problems. You might get problems too, if you offend somebody. It is not so difficult to understand. Until now, the Swiss Muslims are disappointed, but they accept it. There is no organised opposition, or calls for violence. The screaming is coming from abroad, but until now, it seems to be screaming only, and business goes on as usual. I hope it stays that way.

Of course the whole referendum was just meant to set a sign, with no real importance. I think there were only 2 or 3 requests for building a minaret. There are already a lot of mosques in Switzerland, and a few minarets as well (4 when I am well informed, and they may stay). The outcome of the referendum was just an expression of ‘diffuse fears’ for the Islam, and an affront to the ‘political’ class. To clarify: in the towns with the highest percentages of Muslims (Geneva, Zürich and Basel), the referendum was rejected, and at the countryside they were in favour. It is just a fear for change, for loss of control . Those who live in the ‘dynamic cities’ have no problems with Muslims. Isn’t that interesting?

Please don’t forget that freedom of religion and equality for the law are accomplishments of the secular state. We are throwing away them at this moment. I thought CFI was in favour of Secularism?

GdB

Edit: typo

[ Edited: 06 December 2009 08:36 AM by GdB ]
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Posted: 06 December 2009 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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jls7227 - 05 December 2009 01:08 PM

... but if the muslims pretend minarets in Switzerland, they should allow building Budda statues in Egipt and christian chapels in Saudi Arabia.

I am in agreement with this part of your point.  While personally having no use for any religion in particular, I don’t feel that others should be denied that opportunity.

It is difficult, though, for the modern states in western Europe that are secular but with predominantly Christian roots to maintain a national identity.  While this is a goal I strongly support, it is for some a struggle to define what it means to be Swiss or Danes or any of the others when religion is removed from the equation.

I also do agree with the sentiment that it is incumbent upon the immigrant to adapt to his or her new region, not the other way round.

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Posted: 06 December 2009 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Hawkfan - 06 December 2009 08:27 AM
jls7227 - 05 December 2009 01:08 PM

... but if the muslims pretend minarets in Switzerland, they should allow building Budda statues in Egipt and christian chapels in Saudi Arabia.

I am in agreement with this part of your point.

Well, literally taken, I of course do agree too: Egypt, Saudi Arabia should change in secular, democratic states too, including freedom of religion…

GdB

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Posted: 06 December 2009 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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GdB - 06 December 2009 08:27 AM

We might get problems. You might get problems too, if you offend somebody. It is not so difficult to understand. Until now, the Swiss Muslims are disappointed, but they accept it. There is no organised opposition, or calls for violence. The screaming is coming from abroad, but until now, it seems to be screaming only, and business goes on as usual. I hope it stays that way.

Of course the whole referendum was just meant to set a sign, with no real importance. I think there were only 2 or 3 requests for building a minaret. There are already a lot of mosques in Switzerland, and a few minarets as well (4 when I am well informed, and they may stay). The outcome of the referendum was just an expression of ‘diffuse fears’ for the Islam, and an affront to the ‘political’ class. To clarify: in the towns with the highest percentages of Muslims (Geneva, Zürich and Basel), the referendum was rejected, and at the countryside they were in favour. It is just a fear for change, for loss of control . Those who live in the ‘dynamic cities’ have no problems with Muslims. Isn’t that interesting?

Please don’t forget that freedom of religion and equality for the law are accomplishments of the secular state. We are throwing away them at this moment. I thought CFI was in favour of Secularism?

GdB

Edit: typo

I hear you. I’m all for tolerance too. Nonetheless, why can’t I personally be happy about a legal ruling that goes against any religion. You say you want secularism? Well, this is part of the road that leads to a more rational, secular society. Things have to bend. I know everyone has a nice cozy, balanced view of this. A “why can’t we all just get along?” mentality.
Hey, the jews in Israel aren’t taking that path in Palestine. The christian right isn’t taking that path in America. The muslims are not taking that path in many parts of the world. It’s that simple.
Do you want the impact of religion to diminish, or flourish?

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