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June 10th
Posted: 10 June 2006 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Lauren Becker, thank you very much for your excellent thoughts regarding marriage.

I am completely galled and flabbergasted that my partner and I had to go to the country of Vancouver (I’ll let the Canadians explain) rather than my Native USA; alleged land of the free and home of the brave (or his Native and my adopted Hong Kong for that matter) in order to formalize (we were advised that the legal protection a marriage certificate (even one from Vancouver) would be much more protective than any other contract) our 8 years of being a family.

By the way, did you say the Religious Reich or did I hear wrong? Very funny no matter if I heard it or not.

Chris

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Posted: 10 June 2006 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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June 10th

Lauren Becker, thank you very much for your excellent thoughts regarding marriage.

I am completely galled and flabbergasted that my partner and I had to go to the country of Vancouver (I’ll let the Canadians explain) rather than my Native USA; alleged land of the free and home of the brave (or his Native and my adopted Hong Kong for that matter) in order to formalize (we were advised that the legal protection a marriage certificate (even one from Vancouver) would be much more protective than any other contract) our 8 years of being a family.

By the way, did you say the Religious Reich or did I hear wrong? Very funny no matter if I heard it or not.

Chris

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Posted: 11 June 2006 09:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Chris, you are absolutely right about the problems in the US ... it reminds me of the immoral “anti-miscegenation” laws passed decades ago, where bigotry becomes law because the bigots write the laws.

I’ve been to two gay weddings with close friends of mine (both in New England, as it happens), and they are just as much families as I am with my wife ... Ironically, their weddings were both more religious than ours!

:wink:

You have my sympathy.

I haven’t yet had time to hear Lauren’s commentary, but look forward to it.

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Posted: 11 June 2006 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Chris,
It is terrible that we have this attitude in the US. I am so sorry that the trip to Canada was required.

I hope that you and your partner were able to put that behind you both when you crossed the border and enjoyed the event.

And congratulations.
Jim

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Jimmie Keyes
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http://secularhumanism.meetup.com/1/
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. (MLK Jr.)

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Posted: 11 June 2006 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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The event was great, lots of family and friends in a Victorian B&B and a raucous reception dinner next to a table of red hat ladies! We just came back from a honeymoon of sorts to Cairns and the Reef. And our life together has been fantastic I expect that will continue. I am one of the lucky guys who came out met Mr. Right and fell madly in love in a very short time so I had very little trouble once I accepted myself.

One of the problems we still face is my forced expatriation. He can’t get a US entry permit based on our relationship. So we are stuck here until laws are changed.

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Posted: 12 June 2006 12:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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[quote author=“cgallaga”]One of the problems we still face is my forced expatriation. He can’t get a US entry permit based on our relationship. So we are stuck here until laws are changed.

That’s really terrible. I know that the US entry red-tape is absolutely stunning even for hetero couples ... my wife and I had to go through them. Oh the stories I could tell!

rolleyes

But what you are going through is even crazier.

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Posted: 14 June 2006 05:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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The homo couples that I’ve known act just like the
hetero couples.  My uncle is gay with a long-time partner.
They fight and make-up, they put up a tree at the end in
December, they visit family and friends, and invite them
to visit, they have a dog… just like any other couple.

Our CFI Community of Indiana just worked the IN Pride
Festival.  Even though it rained for most (70%+) of the
time the festival was still lively the whole time.  So,
people really seem to appreciate the festival.  We made
some contacts, maybe some will pan out and be part of
CFI-Indiana soon.  grin

The narrow and new definition of marriage as a
Constitutional amendment is so backwards (by using the
Constitution to limit rights through expansion of the
powers of government) and disgusting that I just had to
put my name on something protesting it, luckily there was
a petition available at the festival. grin

Gay rights truly are simply about human rights and equal
protection.

The local IN Pride Festival site here in Indianapolis is:

http://www.indyprideinc.com/Pride.html

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Posted: 07 July 2006 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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What if a hetero coupled got married because they were really great friends and fell in love?  What if they never had a physical relationship at all but were companions and lived as husband and wife?  They would be allowed to marry right?  Of course.  So clearly, marriage has nothing to do with sex whatsoever.

What if a man and another man were really good friends or companions and wanted to live in the same exact type of arrangement?  If it doesn’t have to do with sex then they should be able to.  But they are not.

These examples of non-physical relationships are highly improbable but they illustrate the point.  There is a gender based (or cross-gender based) bias when it comes to marriage.  Of course, everyone knows it is all based on homophobia. 

I think all marriage is a farce anyway so I don’t believe in the “institution” of it in any capacity.  But if it is to be granted a special accord for heteros then it should be for homos too.

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Posted: 07 July 2006 09:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Well, there is a biological basis to the more-or-less monogamous relationships that human males and females share ... which results in some form of marriage insitution in every human culture.

IMO the main reasons for some legal marriage status have to do with (1) children (custody, control, etc.), (2) survivor benefits, (3) control in case of serious illness.

It is also important biologically to make very clear one’s status as “unavailable”. For this purpose there isn’t strictly necessary any legal (or certainly religious) interference ... but a sign is useful to the outside world to know that a certain person isn’t really open for pursuit.

Jealousy is a biologially very real and powerful human emotion.

Of course, none of what I’ve just said has anything to do with whether the couple is heterosexual or homosexual (or in some other mutually acceptable relationship). For example, many homosexual couples have children.

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Posted: 08 July 2006 09:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Dougsmith wrote:

IMO the main reasons for some legal marriage status have to do with (1) children (custody, control, etc.), (2) survivor benefits, (3) control in case of serious illness

Yet all of those things can, and do, occur outside of marriages.  The divorced father has as much right to custody of his children as the mother.  The divorced father takes control of the children when the mother dies.  The same is true for illness.  In fact, it doesn’t even have to be about divorce, they never even have to be married. In fact, there are laws tied to biology (genetics) which bind legal parents to their children. And none of it has to do with marriage.

It is also important biologically to make very clear one’s status as “unavailable”. For this purpose there isn’t strictly necessary any legal (or certainly religious) interference ... but a sign is useful to the outside world to know that a certain person isn’t really open for pursuit.

Well, since marriage is such a farce anyway, married people cheat on each other all the time.  And everyone knows this.  So the wedding band “off limits” indicator is really moot. 

Quick story. A very attractive married woman I used to work with told me that she was at Walmart and some strange man walked up to her and was hitting on her. He basically asked her out.  She told him she was married and had a child (AND she was pregnant) and the man replied “So?”

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Posted: 08 July 2006 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]Well, since marriage is such a farce anyway, married people cheat on each other all the time.  And everyone knows this.  So the wedding band “off limits” indicator is really moot. 

It may be that cheating is relatively prevalent in society, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are some who prefer not to cheat, and are very happy to have an obvious sign as to whether or not someone is available. At any rate, cheating is very far from universal in human society.

[quote author=“rogerflat”]Quick story. A very attractive married woman I used to work with told me that she was at Walmart and some strange man walked up to her and was hitting on her. He basically asked her out.  She told him she was married and had a child (AND she was pregnant) and the man replied “So?”

Ugh. But this only shows that there are asses everywhere.

Our knee-jerk negative reaction to this sort of story is biologically based and would be understood in all cultures.

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Posted: 10 July 2006 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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that doesn’t change the fact that there are some who prefer not to cheat

Yes, there are some who feel that way. But who are they?  Christians? Conservatives?  Who cares?  They shouldn’t be able to impose their values or traditions on us.  Just because the vast majority of our culture has blindly been sucked into believing that marriage is something a man and woman do when they get older doesn’t mean that I have to buy into it.  I don’t look at it as something our culture does.  It’s your culture, or their cutlure.  I do what I want according to my own experiences and perception of the world.  Marriage is simply not part of the equation for me.

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Posted: 10 July 2006 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]I do what I want according to my own experiences and perception of the world.

Isn’t this precisely what the Christians are doing?

And are you endorsing anarchy, or should society have rules?  If so, what process determines the rules and what is to be done with those who don’t want to follow them?  (I.E. the marriage rule you were discussing).

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What’s the point?

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Posted: 11 July 2006 03:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]Yes, there are some who feel that way. But who are they?  Christians? Conservatives?  Who cares?  They shouldn’t be able to impose their values or traditions on us.  Just because the vast majority of our culture has blindly been sucked into believing that marriage is something a man and woman do when they get older doesn’t mean that I have to buy into it.  I don’t look at it as something our culture does.  It’s your culture, or their cutlure.  I do what I want according to my own experiences and perception of the world.  Marriage is simply not part of the equation for me.

OK, that’s fair enough for you, Roger. But I hope that you let the person know who you’re going out with. She is likely not to agree. Of course, if she does agree, then well and good ...

But as I said before, jealousy is a universal human emotion, based in biology. We share the emotion of jealousy with many other non-human animals, so it isn’t some human cultural construct.

If nobody you’re with feels jealous when you sleep around (I won’t say “cheat” because that begs the question), then I don’t see any obvious problems, so long as you aren’t having children that you can’t or won’t support financially ...

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Posted: 11 July 2006 05:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Of course, not being married has nothing to do with whether or not you will cheat on the person you are with.

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Posted: 11 July 2006 07:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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I think Doug was trying to get at the biological arguments for monogamy - so whether or not you will cheat does relate to whether you believe in the institution of marriage, in terms of naturalistic explanations of relationships.  If we acknowledge that jealousy and possessiveness with mates are observable and evolutionary, the negative consequences of cheating and the rationale of monogamy follow.

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