2 of 4
2
Care to engage in intellectual religious conversation? (A rational, real-world Christian’s perspective)
Posted: 16 December 2009 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  308
Joined  2009-11-30

Well, I will admit to the use of entheogens on my journey, but most of my “spiritual” experiences have come from vipassana or by spontaneous eruption. I have direct experience of transcendent realms of being, and I pray to God, not as some deity separated from me, but as an inseparable part of who I am.
God is the part, required for me to accept reality, dreams included, completely, as it is. I’ve tried to exclude God out of the picture, but God is there, inherent in all experience, no way to escape him/her/it/whatever. This is perpetual awe, and I’m afraid it’s nothing I can get rid of.

 Signature 

“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4858
Joined  2007-10-05

I recommend quitting the hallucinogens and studying math and science as the path to enlightenment. It is working for me.  wink

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  308
Joined  2009-11-30

Oh really..

What’s so scientific about rejecting entheogens?

 Signature 

“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5508
Joined  2006-10-22

My dictionary doesn’t list either “entheogen” or “vipassana”.  Could you define each of these and give a bit of history about their sources?

Occam

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 12:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15433
Joined  2006-02-14
WeeDie - 16 December 2009 12:05 PM

Well, I will admit to the use of entheogens on my journey, but most of my “spiritual” experiences have come from vipassana or by spontaneous eruption. I have direct experience of transcendent realms of being, and I pray to God, not as some deity separated from me, but as an inseparable part of who I am.
God is the part, required for me to accept reality, dreams included, completely, as it is. I’ve tried to exclude God out of the picture, but God is there, inherent in all experience, no way to escape him/her/it/whatever. This is perpetual awe, and I’m afraid it’s nothing I can get rid of.

Um, this is highly confusing. By “God” most people tend to mean “the all knowing, all powerful, perfectly good person who created and sustains the universe”. I don’t see that in what you’re discussing. You appear to be discussing something vaguely akin to pantheism or even deism. In that case, you may well use prayer, but I can’t see what good it could do you. At least, there appears on your system to be no other person out there listening to you. If God is an inseparable part of you, then to whom are you praying?

If all you mean by believing in God is that you are in “perpetual awe”, that’s something an atheist can embrace just as easily. When I read about science, I am in nearly perpetual awe of the universe.

Not sure what you mean by “spontaneous eruption”, it sounds like some sort of illness. But “vipassana” is a sort of meditation, and typically those Buddhists who practice it do not believe in God. That is to say, they don’t find God by engaging in it.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 12:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15433
Joined  2006-02-14
Occam - 16 December 2009 12:43 PM

My dictionary doesn’t list either “entheogen” or “vipassana”.  Could you define each of these and give a bit of history about their sources?

“Vipassana” is a sort of Buddhist meditation technique, otherwise known as “insight meditation”. It can be a perfectly harmless and even enjoyable method of relaxation and awareness of your own mental states. As I’ve just said in my previous post, however, it does not reveal anything about “God”. Indeed, typically it reveals the impermanence of all being; a state which precludes a soul or God.

(More on vipassana in Wiki HERE).

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  308
Joined  2009-11-30
dougsmith - 16 December 2009 12:48 PM
WeeDie - 16 December 2009 12:05 PM

Well, I will admit to the use of entheogens on my journey, but most of my “spiritual” experiences have come from vipassana or by spontaneous eruption. I have direct experience of transcendent realms of being, and I pray to God, not as some deity separated from me, but as an inseparable part of who I am.
God is the part, required for me to accept reality, dreams included, completely, as it is. I’ve tried to exclude God out of the picture, but God is there, inherent in all experience, no way to escape him/her/it/whatever. This is perpetual awe, and I’m afraid it’s nothing I can get rid of.

Um, this is highly confusing. By “God” most people tend to mean “the all knowing, all powerful, perfectly good person who created and sustains the universe”. I don’t see that in what you’re discussing. You appear to be discussing something vaguely akin to pantheism or even deism. In that case, you may well use prayer, but I can’t see what good it could do you. At least, there appears on your system to be no other person out there listening to you. If God is an inseparable part of you, then to whom are you praying?

If all you mean by believing in God is that you are in “perpetual awe”, that’s something an atheist can embrace just as easily. When I read about science, I am in nearly perpetual awe of the universe.

Not sure what you mean by “spontaneous eruption”, it sounds like some sort of illness. But “vipassana” is a sort of meditation, and typically those Buddhists who practice it do not believe in God. That is to say, they don’t find God by engaging in it.

Well actually, gods are very much part of general buddhist cosmology, only their practice, at it’s core, does not hinge upon the existence of gods. But that’s their perspective, not mine, and generally not the western perspective.
Vipassana is a method to produce insight into the nature of reality, a way of seeing things as they truly are. Some buddhists have found gods and archetypal realms of being while practicing, which may or may not be conducive to futher practice. Within tantrism, gods are very much tools to achieve temporary states of enlightenment.

God is the force that acts upon me from a non-locable origin, and the awe that it inspires is simply that, awe. Nothing more, nothing less.

[ Edited: 16 December 2009 01:01 PM by WeeDie ]
 Signature 

“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5508
Joined  2006-10-22

OK, that takes care of “vipassana”.  What about   “entheogen”?

Occam

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 01:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4858
Joined  2007-10-05

I was going to let WeeDie reply to Occam’s question about entheogens, but since he passed on the chance I’ll do it for him.

Entheogen at Wikipedia

Entheogen is a made-up name for hallucinogens: peyote, mescaline, LSD, psilocybine mushrooms, etc. Click on WeeDie’s name, then click on the WWW tab and you go to his web site http://www.shroomsquad.org/. That should give you a good idea where he’s coming from.

Look, I’m not one to denigrate a person for using recreational drugs. Lord knows I ate more than my share in my younger days, but all it got me was a wasted decade and no college degree. Now I’m back in college studying the math and science I couldn’t pass 30 years ago because I was too busy watching music melt out of the speakers. If you want to spend your time partying go right ahead, but don’t try to pass that cosmik debris off as enlightenment.

BTW, when your recreational choices include felonious substances it does not pay to advertise.

[ Edited: 16 December 2009 01:22 PM by DarronS ]
 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15433
Joined  2006-02-14
WeeDie - 16 December 2009 12:59 PM

Well actually, gods are very much part of general buddhist cosmology, only their practice, at it’s core, does not hinge upon the existence of gods. But that’s their perspective, not mine, and generally not the western perspective.

It’s not true that all of Buddhist cosmology necessitates the existence of gods; Buddhist polytheism is basically found in mahayana Buddhism, less so in early forms and less so in Theravada forms. And as you suggest, those gods are not actually important to the Buddhist path, which is largely directed at ending suffering for oneself and other sentient beings.

Further, none of this has anything to do with “God”. The Buddhists believe in gods, not God. Even something vaguely similar like Buddha nature is quite theologically distinct. It isn’t obviously all powerful or all knowing, and its even questionable about whether it is perfectly good or a person. It certainly didn’t create the world. It is basically something like a platonic world soul that permeates everything but doesn’t have its own beliefs and desires.

WeeDie - 16 December 2009 12:59 PM

God is the force that acts upon me from a non-locable origin, and the awe that it inspires is simply that, awe. Nothing more, nothing less.

So by “God” you just mean, “Some feeling of impetus I get from somewhere that gives me a feeling of awe.”

OK, theologically that’s not much of anything, though. Further, it could easily come from some brain center that was stimulated during meditation.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 01:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  308
Joined  2009-11-30
fotobits - 16 December 2009 01:13 PM

I was going to let WeeDie reply to Occam’s question about entheogens, but since he passed on the chance I’ll do it for him.

Entheogen at Wikipedia

Entheogen is a made-up name for hallucinogens: peyote, mescaline, LSD, psilocybine mushrooms, etc. Click on WeeDie’s name, then click on the WWW tab and you go to his web site http://www.shroomsquad.org/. That should give you a good idea where he’s coming from.

Look, I’m not one to denigrate a person for using recreational drugs. Lord knows I ate more than my share in my younger days, but all it got me was a wasted decade and no college degree. Now I’m back in college studying the math and science I couldn’t pass 30 years ago because I was too busy watching music melt out of the speakers. If you want to spend your time partying go right ahead, but don’t try to pass that cosmik debris off as enlightenment.

BTW, when your recreational choices include felonious substances it does not pay to advertise.

Look, we’re simply discussing topic here. I’ve not tried to pass any of the cosmik debris off as enlightenment. I’ve simply pointed to entheogens as a portal to the divine dimension. The divine dimension may or may not be, conducive to enlightenment. I’m definitely not saying belief in God is necessary for enlightenment. Neither did I advertise my use of entheogens. All I did was post a website in my profile ( which I had completely forgotten about), and someone brought it up.

 Signature 

“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 01:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  308
Joined  2009-11-30
dougsmith - 16 December 2009 01:20 PM
WeeDie - 16 December 2009 12:59 PM

God is the force that acts upon me from a non-locable origin, and the awe that it inspires is simply that, awe. Nothing more, nothing less.

So by “God” you just mean, “Some feeling of impetus I get from somewhere that gives me a feeling of awe.”

OK, theologically that’s not much of anything, though. Further, it could easily come from some brain center that was stimulated during meditation.

I didn’t come here with the expectation to convert you all to some form of theism. I came here to speak with intelligent people, and accounted for my experience of God. Not with the intention of proving anything.
God may very well come from some part of the brain, but to me that doesn’t make it any less mysterious. What is the brain really? What is matter? What is mind? These are questions that I intend to find the answer to. Experientially.

 Signature 

“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 01:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4858
Joined  2007-10-05
WeeDie - 16 December 2009 01:29 PM

I’ve not tried to pass any of the cosmik debris off as enlightenment. I’ve simply pointed to entheogens as a portal to the divine dimension.

Hold it right there, don’t you waste your time on me.

Portal to the divine dimension? Give me a break. You’re talking about recreational drugs. One thing I learned a long time ago is the revelations that seemed so profound at midnight look insignificant by noon. There is a major difference between drug-induced profundity and reality.

Neither did I advertise my use of entheogens. All I did was post a website in my profile ( which I had completely forgotten about), and someone brought it up.

Your web site is an advertisement for hallucinogens.

What is the brain really? What is matter? What is mind? These are questions that I intend to find the answer to.

You won’t find the answers in a hallucinogenic stupor. Many people get college degrees and devote their lives to answering these questions. If you truly want answers you should do the same.

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15433
Joined  2006-02-14
WeeDie - 16 December 2009 01:35 PM

I didn’t come here with the expectation to convert you all to some form of theism. I came here to speak with intelligent people, and accounted for my experience of God. Not with the intention of proving anything.

Of course, you realize that this is a forum for skeptical inquiry, right? So that’s what we’re doing. We’re skeptical, we’re inquiring about your experience, supposedly of God. Now it seems it’s less an experience of God than something rather different.

WeeDie - 16 December 2009 01:35 PM

God may very well come from some part of the brain, but to me that doesn’t make it any less mysterious. What is the brain really? What is matter? What is mind? These are questions that I intend to find the answer to. Experientially.

Well, to answer those questions you’d need to look at the relevant sciences, e.g., neuroscience, cognitive psychology and the rest. You can’t find out the answers to those questions by insight meditation or taking hallucinogenic drugs.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 December 2009 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  308
Joined  2009-11-30
dougsmith - 16 December 2009 01:47 PM
WeeDie - 16 December 2009 01:35 PM

I didn’t come here with the expectation to convert you all to some form of theism. I came here to speak with intelligent people, and accounted for my experience of God. Not with the intention of proving anything.

Of course, you realize that this is a forum for skeptical inquiry, right? So that’s what we’re doing. We’re skeptical, we’re inquiring about your experience, supposedly of God. Now it seems it’s less an experience of God than something rather different.

WeeDie - 16 December 2009 01:35 PM

God may very well come from some part of the brain, but to me that doesn’t make it any less mysterious. What is the brain really? What is matter? What is mind? These are questions that I intend to find the answer to. Experientially.

Well, to answer those questions you’d need to look at the relevant sciences, e.g., neuroscience, cognitive psychology and the rest. You can’t find out the answers to those questions by insight meditation or taking hallucinogenic drugs.

I find your answer rather dogmatic. How do you know what study may produce the answer? Get off your high horse please.

 Signature 

“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 4
2
 
‹‹ Is atheism a religion?      The Earth Charter ››