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I have abandoned God
Posted: 17 December 2009 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Contemplating the discussion I’ve been having on this forum,
I have decided to abandon God.

But there is still some lingering impression of something beyond my field of consciousness,
which acts upon me in ways I cannot know about.

Not being able to decipher whether it is something dead or alive,
I wonder if you could help me.

There is this sense you see, that existence is more then just self and other.
And a emptiness from which all appears to manifest from.

Beyond perception. Beyond sensation. Beyond feeling. Beyond experience.
I have the impression, that something remains.

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“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

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Posted: 17 December 2009 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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WeeDie, your change may be premature.  While I recognize that there’s a great deal of the universe that I do not and cannot know or understand, I’m comfortable with living within that which I do know and understand.  Of course, I always try to learn more and expand my knowledge, however, recognizing that I’m a quite limited being, I am not concerned by any feeling of “emptiness”.  If this bothers you as much as you seem to indicate, you are probably not ready to give up your need for a metaphysical or a belief in a overseeing, all-knowing authority.

Occam

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Posted: 17 December 2009 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Atheism does not mean that we don’t think there are mysteries in the world. The fact that there are mysteries and unknowns is what drives science and philosophy. Our emotional tendencies may indicate what we might be interested investing our time into to investigate, but they in themselves are no reliable indicator of reality.

Edit: I also agree with Occam that you probably aren’t ready to completely abandon your beliefs in a god just yet.

[ Edited: 17 December 2009 12:17 PM by Kaizen ]
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Posted: 17 December 2009 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Alright, I’ll let God linger. We’ll see if (s)he vanishes with time. For the time being, I’ll have faith that what is true sticks, while all that is false dissipates into the abyss.

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“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

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Posted: 17 December 2009 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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WeeDie - 17 December 2009 12:04 PM

Contemplating the discussion I’ve been having on this forum,
I have decided to abandon God.

But there is still some lingering impression of something beyond my field of consciousness,
which acts upon me in ways I cannot know about.

Not being able to decipher whether it is something dead or alive,
I wonder if you could help me.

There is this sense you see, that existence is more then just self and other.
And a emptiness from which all appears to manifest from.

Beyond perception. Beyond sensation. Beyond feeling. Beyond experience.
I have the impression, that something remains.

Then, perhaps you shouldn’t abandon God.  It isn’t necessary that the existence of God be established by absolute proof satisfactory to science or reason, you know (it can’t be done).  Most things can’t be—there are few, if any, absolutes.  We deal in probabilities all the time.  The experimental method is probably the best we can use to understand how the universe works.  But, it need not apply, or result in a conclusion, as to certain things, in order for us to find them worthwhile, and to benefit from them.

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“Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain.” 
—F. Schiller

http://theblogofciceronianus.blogspot.com

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Posted: 17 December 2009 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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WeeDie - 17 December 2009 12:31 PM

Alright, I’ll let God linger. We’ll see if (s)he vanishes with time. For the time being, I’ll have faith that what is true sticks, while all that is false dissipates into the abyss.

I might agree with that if you add “if one remains intellectually honest and analyzes legitimate counter arguments objectively.”

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Posted: 17 December 2009 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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What does objectively mean? Subject/object what? All I find is IS-ness, all an object to emptiness, and in emptiness, subject becomes everything.

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“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

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Posted: 17 December 2009 12:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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If God is simply a fiction, there is nothing there to “abandon”, except ignorance.

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Doug

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El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

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Posted: 17 December 2009 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Perhaps there are most fictions than God that we carry around. This notion of personal identity. What is it?

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“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

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Posted: 17 December 2009 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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WeeDie - 17 December 2009 12:43 PM

What does objectively mean? Subject/object what? All I find is IS-ness, all an object to emptiness, and in emptiness, subject becomes everything.

Just because a subject is required, it doesn’t mean that there’s no object. Subjectivism is a self-centered and childish approach to life that says that “nothing else is important but me and what I think.” Further, objects are required logically. One cannot be subjectively subjective. That would land you in an infinite regress. 

Weedie, I mean this in the best way possible. You may consider laying off the hallucinogens for a while to clear your mind up and take a course in philosophy and/or logic. I think you would enjoy those immensely.

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Posted: 17 December 2009 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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dougsmith - 17 December 2009 12:58 PM

If God is simply a fiction, there is nothing there to “abandon”, except ignorance.

There seems to be at least a model of how one determines how one should behave in the world and how one manages one’s emotions. To pull that rug out from underneath someone might not be the best idea unless you have something for him to work with as a useful substitute until he can build a solid belief system.

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Posted: 17 December 2009 01:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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WeeDie - 17 December 2009 01:03 PM

This notion of personal identity. What is it?

Very complex question. HERE is one introduction to it. Another great one is the book Reasons and Persons by Derek Parfit.

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Doug

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El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

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Posted: 17 December 2009 01:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Kaizen - 17 December 2009 01:14 PM

There seems to be at least a model of how one determines how one should behave in the world and how one manages one’s emotions. To pull that rug out from underneath someone might not be the best idea unless you have something for him to work with as a useful substitute until he can build a solid belief system.

Well, usually one will not dispose of an illusion until one is ready. Usually the problem is quite the reverse: illusions become impossible to abandon.

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Doug

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El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

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Posted: 17 December 2009 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Occam as usual succinctly makes a great point that we are limited beings with an imperfect understanding of the universe.  Ultimately what you choose to believe will come from your own observations, experiences and knowledge.  If you choose to believe in God, it will ultimately be a leap of faith. 

What proof of God is there?  I don’t really know of anything one can see or touch that proves His existence.  Some people think they have seen a miraculous event that proves the Hand of God that could also be chance or coincidence.  I’ve always thought intelligent design was flawed at its core because it tries to find proof of God in nature usually in the form of something we don’t understand.  The problem with that is that if something can be explained does that mean it is no longer divne.  In and of itself, I don’t think so. 

If you are a Christian for example, you will have to take someone else’s word for it.  There is no physical proof I am aware of that Jesus actually lived.  Even if there was that does not mean he was the Son of God.  To know for sure, you would have had to have lived in 33 AD and seen him crucified and seen him alive again 3 days later.  If true, only a few people actually winessed that.  You have to believe they truthfully told the story and that it was recorded accurately.  If you are a Jew, you have to believe that God created several pacts with man and ultimately led Moses and his followers to Israel in the process laying down rules for living a good life. 

That’s a big leap, but it’s not impossible.  You may find that the power of Jesus’ teachings are enough to prove he is the Son of God or you may conclude he was just a mortal man with delusions of grandeur who had good ideas about how to treat oneanother.  This site is an excellent source for skeptics, but you should talk to people who believe and don’t believe and question both belief and non-belief. 

Personally, I think this is a lifelong journey.  Some have already made up their minds and would disagree with me. 

Good luck.

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Posted: 17 December 2009 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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JRM5001 - 17 December 2009 02:09 PM

I don’t really know of anything one can see or touch that proves His existence.

There is this strange form of sense, which people call, well, a sense. I heard about it yesterday on a train when two people were talking about their dogs “sensing” them coming home; supposedly this sense has nothing to do with the dog hearing his master or smelling him. People are weird.

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Posted: 17 December 2009 03:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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George - 17 December 2009 02:56 PM
JRM5001 - 17 December 2009 02:09 PM

I don’t really know of anything one can see or touch that proves His existence.

There is this strange form of sense, which people call, well, a sense. I heard about it yesterday on a train when two people were talking about their dogs “sensing” them coming home; supposedly this sense has nothing to do with the dog hearing his master or smelling him. People are weird.

And then there’s the whole “count the hits and forget the misses” thing.

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