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I have abandoned God
Posted: 17 December 2009 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Check out this account: http://www.spiritualteachers.org/b_roberts_interview.htm

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“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

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Posted: 18 December 2009 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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WeeDie - 17 December 2009 12:43 PM

What does objectively mean? Subject/object what? All I find is IS-ness, all an object to emptiness, and in emptiness, subject becomes everything.

WeeDie, maybe I’m a little late in this discussion as it has already evolved, but perhaps you should investigate Humanism, which has defined a set of fundamental core values:  http://humaniststudies.org/amsterdam.html  Perhaps that would fill the void you are experiencing.

Another set of beliefs is Pantheism, which does not believe in a personal god, but considers nature as a synonym for god. http://www.pantheism.net/

There are also Spiritual Humanists that are atheists or agnostics but value the traditions of religious rituals and meditation.

Ken

[ Edited: 18 December 2009 09:57 AM by kenh ]
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Posted: 18 December 2009 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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WeeDie - 17 December 2009 06:05 PM

Check out this account: http://www.spiritualteachers.org/b_roberts_interview.htm

Dunno, but from a quick read it looks very problematic. It seems as though she is seriously confused about Christian theology (which is founded upon an everlasting self as the focus of salvation, and an everlasting self as the personal God) and Buddhist philosophy (which has always taught “anatta” or “no-self”), unless she just using words like “no self” in confusing and non-standard ways.

Just to take one sentence more or less at random: “... if we actually knew the unbridgeable chasm that lies between the true nature of consciousness or self and the true nature of the divine, we would despair of ever making the journey.”

Firstly, there is the question as to what she means by “the true nature of consciousness/the divine”. How is their “true nature” different from just the things themselves? If it isn’t different, why use the words “true nature” at all? To distinguish them from their “false natures”? What are those?

Secondly it would appear that she, as a conscious being, is telling us that she is able to get outside of her own consciousness and see the “chasm” between that consciousness and “the true nature of the divine”, and further see that the chasm is “unbridgeable”. This is a simple contradiction. If there is an “unbridgeable chasm” between consciousness and the divine, then she would be unable to recognize the divine at all, and would not be aware of the chasm itself. The fact that she claims to see this chasm is evidence that it cannot exist.

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Posted: 18 December 2009 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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That’s exactly what she’s saying Doug. She claims to have come to a cessation of consciousness, or self, and leaves little word on what it left when it is gone, although she mentions it is not God. She say that buddhism holds an important truth about no-self, or the dissolution of the five skandhas. I’m perplexed as to what to make of her. I’ve read her books and they describe a journey I can only partly recognize.

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“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

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Posted: 18 December 2009 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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WeeDie - 17 December 2009 12:04 PM

I have the impression, that something remains.

You can transition into worrying about other people and the thought that the only worship God needs is that you treat other people well.  And that if He needs anything else He’ll let you know.

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Posted: 19 December 2009 01:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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WeeDie - 18 December 2009 03:32 PM

That’s exactly what she’s saying Doug. She claims to have come to a cessation of consciousness, or self, and leaves little word on what it left when it is gone, although she mentions it is not God. She say that buddhism holds an important truth about no-self, or the dissolution of the five skandhas. I’m perplexed as to what to make of her. I’ve read her books and they describe a journey I can only partly recognize.

Hi WeeDie,

I think what you are delving in to is ending the illusion of the mental world being separate to the physical world.

I think what is left is just that, no separation.

I think the Buddhists learnt to do this through meditation 1,000’s of years before scientists got there.

But there is a difference between knowing it intellectually and your brain reconfiguring to directly experience it that way.

I think it’s the directly experiencing it which is the, or at least part of the ” awakening"or “enlightenment” or “nirvana”

This link might interest you: http://personallifemedia.com/guests/2132-susan-blackmore

Susan Blackmore is a scientist who also practices zen meditation.

Stephen

[ Edited: 19 December 2009 01:36 AM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 19 December 2009 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Yes, Blackmore is a good source for a scientifically astute psychologist who is also a Zen Buddhist.

HERE are some articles she’s written for Skeptical Inquirer, and HERE is her appearance on Point of Inquiry.

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Posted: 19 December 2009 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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WeeDie - 17 December 2009 12:04 PM


Contemplating the discussion I’ve been having on this forum,
I have decided to abandon God.

 


You never had the true God. The rest of your statement shows this.

Once you HAVE the Supreme Being, it is not possible to desert Him.

When seen, God is too simply beautiful to abandon. He has said so Himself.

Infact, after the sighting, you would rather
die than leave such a Glorious Beauty that Supreme Being is.

[ Edited: 19 December 2009 06:22 AM by ray ]
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Posted: 19 December 2009 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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ray - 19 December 2009 06:19 AM
WeeDie - 17 December 2009 12:04 PM


Contemplating the discussion I’ve been having on this forum,
I have decided to abandon God.

 


You never had the true God. The rest of your statement shows this.

Once you HAVE the Supreme Being, it is not possible to desert Him.

When seen, God is too simply beautiful to abandon. He has said so Himself.

Infact, after the sighting, you would rather
die than leave such a Glorious Beauty that Supreme Being is.

“The true god?”!! ....“rather die than leave such a glorious beauty…” !!! This is proselytizing!! It’s getting boring!! I could be mistaken but this sounds real “preachy”.

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Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

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Posted: 19 December 2009 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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ray - 19 December 2009 06:19 AM

When seen, God is too simply beautiful to abandon. He has said so Himself.

I said that about myself too, but nobody seems to buy it!

LOL

ray - 19 December 2009 06:19 AM

Infact, after the sighting, you would rather
die than leave such a Glorious Beauty that Supreme Being is.

Count me skeptical.

hmmm

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Posted: 19 December 2009 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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ray - 19 December 2009 06:19 AM

Once you HAVE the Supreme Being, it is not possible to desert Him.

When seen, God is too simply beautiful to abandon. He has said so Himself.

Infact, after the sighting, you would rather
die than leave such a Glorious Beauty that Supreme Being is.

Ray, I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to think critically, to step back and examine your statements objectively as if they were from someone else.  However, just as I feel sympathy when I see a physically handicapped person struggle to perform some action, I can’t help but feel the same when you write such stuff as the above.  It has no basis in physical fact, and I see it as expressing the same kind of emotions and rationality that a small child does about Santa Claus. 

Read what you wrote, and ask yourself at each sentence.  What proof can I offer for this statement?  (and quoting a book isn’t even slightly akin to proof.)  “He has said so himself,” is particularly meaningless as Doug pointed out above.

Occam

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Posted: 19 December 2009 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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This stuff about “having God” is somewhat disquieting.  Is innuendo intended?  Some kind of Freudian impulse at work?  Or possessive, e.g. I have God, I have a cat, (therefore, God is my cat….sorry, I had to write that)?

I would think even the most devout believer would hesitate to say he/she has God.  It seems to be rather demeaning to the Supreme Being.

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Posted: 20 December 2009 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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For those that are interested in the experiential account of a permanent cessation of self, could also check out the account of Suzanne Segal or perhaps U.G Krishnamurti. I find it rather more interesting to listen to those that have actually experienced what they’re talking about then to those that interpret a teaching or field of experience through a certain lens of dogma. Be it scientific or not. There is no getting away that these experiential accounts mystify the mind.

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“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

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Posted: 20 December 2009 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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WeeDie, meditation is a well documented procedure that often tends to achieve the same feelings as do drug or hypnosis induced hallucinations.  Each person experiencing this must interpret what has happened to him/her during that time.  One of the problems is that some, possibly of a more scientific bent, who have meditated successfully and have used mind-altering drugs see them as about the same and decide they are just a temporary reprogramming of the brain and are not metaphysical and have no special significance.  A second problem is that for scientific acceptance phenomena have to be repeatable by outside experimenters, and this isn’t the case.  A third is that many people who cannot function in society and who believe many bizarre, patently untrue things also report these kinds of thinking activity. 

We all grow up believing our own senses, and accepting what we experience as truth.  One of the difficult disciplines scientists have to develop is to accept these only tentatively, and recognize that they may be wrong.  I suppose this is one of the gulfs that sometimes make it hard for scientists and laypeople to communicate.

Occam

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Posted: 20 December 2009 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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There are different forms of “knowing” by the senses. Some people just speak another kind of language; something above science - the way I see it.

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“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

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