4 of 5
4
I have abandoned God
Posted: 24 December 2009 06:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15305
Joined  2006-02-14
StephenLawrence - 24 December 2009 06:41 PM

I think having two concepts of the self, perduring and enduring clears up something I’ve puzzled over.

When someone says we construct an illusionary self, what I want to ask is who is doing the constructing if the self is an illusion?

With these two concepts it seems I have the answer, the real perduring self creates the illusion of the enduring self .

Careful. That’s a theory. It has to be verified by actual experimental evidence. Whatever the self is, it is constructed by (parts of) the brain. How the self is created and sustained is doubtless an extremely complex question, and one that cannot be answered by armchair (or zafu) contemplation.

If I had to guess, my guess would be that when the final theory comes out about this, it will be significantly more complex and unruly than the simpler theories one gets from Buddhist theorizing, although in its broad outlines there will be some similarities. (Certainly, there will be great similarities in there being no eternal soul).

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 December 2009 06:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5939
Joined  2006-12-20
dougsmith - 24 December 2009 06:45 PM
StephenLawrence - 24 December 2009 06:41 PM

I think having two concepts of the self, perduring and enduring clears up something I’ve puzzled over.

When someone says we construct an illusionary self, what I want to ask is who is doing the constructing if the self is an illusion?

With these two concepts it seems I have the answer, the real perduring self creates the illusion of the enduring self .

Careful. That’s a theory. It has to be verified by actual experimental evidence. Whatever the self is, it is constructed by (parts of) the brain. How the self is created and sustained is doubtless an extremely complex question, and one that cannot be answered by armchair (or zafu) contemplation.

Ok, the problem I had was that if someone says we construct illusionary selves, then it seems like what is being said is illusions construct illusions.

That’s what I feel is cleared up.

Stephen

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 December 2009 04:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5939
Joined  2006-12-20

Doug,

The other thing that now seems to make sense to me that didn’t before is that I did and do believe that I’m not the same person now as I was when I was three or five minutes ago and yet it’s a puzzle that to talk about when I was three looks like a contradiction.

As you’ve explained in the past the solution is I’m spread out in time as I am in space. But a little more explanation is needed.

My left hand is not my right hand. My left hand is part of me and my right hand is part of me.

Me now is not me then, me now is part of me and me then is part of me.

So now I think that makes sense and there is no puzzle.

Stephen

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 December 2009 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  308
Joined  2009-11-30

The self is constructed by the reflexive mechanism of mind. By the mind bending in on itself, it comes to see and know itself. At the center of consciousness is the feeling of knowing and existing, and all of consciousness is the essence of what it means to be human. When the self ceases, consciousness ceases. This is not to say that some sort of action does not continue, it’s just that it is done by no one. Like so many other things.

 Signature 

“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 December 2009 07:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15305
Joined  2006-02-14
StephenLawrence - 25 December 2009 04:40 AM

The other thing that now seems to make sense to me that didn’t before is that I did and do believe that I’m not the same person now as I was when I was three or five minutes ago and yet it’s a puzzle that to talk about when I was three looks like a contradiction.

As you’ve explained in the past the solution is I’m spread out in time as I am in space. But a little more explanation is needed.

My left hand is not my right hand. My left hand is part of me and my right hand is part of me.

Me now is not me then, me now is part of me and me then is part of me.

So now I think that makes sense and there is no puzzle.

David Lewis has a number of papers on this that are very good indeed. (I don’t have them with me at present or I’d cite them). IIRC it’s called a “temporal parts” theory of personal identity, where a person is a four dimensional spacetime worm.

There are a number of interesting questions that come up. One of them that I like particularly is what sense there is to saying to oneself, “Thank God it’s Friday!” This ought to mean that you’re happy you’re in Friday rather than Monday, since you have time to rest during the weekend. But of course since you’re really a four dimensional spacetime worm, you exist in all the days.

At any rate, I don’t believe Lewis did any meditating, and I am sure that he would not have needed to to write his papers or come up with his beliefs.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 December 2009 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5939
Joined  2006-12-20
dougsmith - 25 December 2009 07:47 AM

 

There are a number of interesting questions that come up. One of them that I like particularly is what sense there is to saying to oneself, “Thank God it’s Friday!” This ought to mean that you’re happy you’re in Friday rather than Monday, since you have time to rest during the weekend. But of course since you’re really a four dimensional spacetime worm, you exist in all the days.


Well a stab at an answer is that if you experienced yourself as a four dimensional spacetime worm, you wouldn’t say to your self thank God it’s Friday. But I don’t really believe that, so perhaps it’s back to the drawing board.

At any rate, I don’t believe Lewis did any meditating, and I am sure that he would not have needed to to write his papers or come up with his beliefs.

This is besides the point.

I’ll use an analogy. Take an optical illusion in which we experience seeing one square darker than another but believe they are both the same shade of grey. Meditating is not required to get us to believe this but imagine that if we meditated for many years looking at the two squares, that we did end up experiencing the two squares as the same shade of grey.

That’s the idea of what the result of meditating is for a few people, regarding how they experience time and the self.

Stephen

[ Edited: 25 December 2009 08:34 AM by StephenLawrence ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 December 2009 08:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5939
Joined  2006-12-20
WeeDie - 25 December 2009 05:56 AM

The self is constructed by the reflexive mechanism of mind. By the mind bending in on itself, it comes to see and know itself. At the center of consciousness is the feeling of knowing and existing, and all of consciousness is the essence of what it means to be human. When the self ceases, consciousness ceases. This is not to say that some sort of action does not continue, it’s just that it is done by no one. Like so many other things.

So does consciousness arise as a result of the brain’s construction of an enduring self?
If so it would explain why we are conscious, as the construction of an enduring self would have benefits in terms of evolution.

Stephen

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 December 2009 04:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5939
Joined  2006-12-20
dougsmith - 25 December 2009 07:47 AM


There are a number of interesting questions that come up. One of them that I like particularly is what sense there is to saying to oneself, “Thank God it’s Friday!” This ought to mean that you’re happy you’re in Friday rather than Monday, since you have time to rest during the weekend. But of course since you’re really a four dimensional spacetime worm, you exist in all the days.

 

Having thought about this a little more it seems it isn’t quite right to say I exist in all the days, assuming the four dimensional spacetime worm view. Different parts of me exist on different days, the part of me saying “thank God it’s Friday” exists only on Friday.

Stephen

[ Edited: 25 December 2009 05:01 PM by StephenLawrence ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 December 2009 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15305
Joined  2006-02-14
StephenLawrence - 25 December 2009 04:57 PM

Having thought about this a little more it seems it isn’t quite right to say I exist in all the days, assuming the four dimensional spacetime worm view. Different parts of me exist on different days, the part of me saying “thank God it’s Friday” exists only on Friday.

Right, IIRC this is David Lewis’s idea as well, involving so-called “temporal parts”.

BTW, this is all pretty OT in the thread.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 December 2009 09:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5508
Joined  2006-10-22

Doug, does OT stand for on-topic or for off-topic? smile

Occam

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 December 2009 02:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5939
Joined  2006-12-20
Occam - 25 December 2009 09:15 PM

Doug, does OT stand for on-topic or for off-topic? smile

Occam

I think the one who knows the answer is WeeDie.

Stephen

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 December 2009 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15305
Joined  2006-02-14
Occam - 25 December 2009 09:15 PM

Doug, does OT stand for on-topic or for off-topic? smile

LOL

OT = Off Topic

Maybe we should use different initials, although I think it’s pretty clear from context ...

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 December 2009 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  384
Joined  2009-05-03
WeeDie - 17 December 2009 12:04 PM

Contemplating the discussion I’ve been having on this forum,
I have decided to abandon God.

But there is still some lingering impression of something beyond my field of consciousness,
which acts upon me in ways I cannot know about.

Not being able to decipher whether it is something dead or alive,
I wonder if you could help me.

There is this sense you see, that existence is more then just self and other.
And a emptiness from which all appears to manifest from.

Beyond perception. Beyond sensation. Beyond feeling. Beyond experience.
I have the impression, that something remains.

of course. there will be always a feeling of emptyness inside of you, when God does not take its place there. No God = No real reason for your life.
It becomes senseless and empty.

When God is taken away, nothing remains.

Nothing as explanation for all that exists. Everything from nothing. How could you belief such a nonsense lie ?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 December 2009 09:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2422
Joined  2007-09-03
Adonai888 - 28 December 2009 07:58 PM

.....
When God is taken away, nothing remains.

Nothing as explanation for all that exists. ......

slow down here…...

Why is God the only possible explanation.

[ Edited: 29 December 2009 05:30 AM by Jackson ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 December 2009 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  384
Joined  2009-05-03
Jackson - 28 December 2009 09:32 PM
Adonai888 - 28 December 2009 07:58 PM

.....
When God is taken away, nothing remains.

Nothing as explanation for all that exists. ......

slow down here…...

Why is God the only possible explanation.

i have not said God is the only possible explanation. But in my understanding, God is the only reasonable explanation.

Profile
 
 
   
4 of 5
4