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does anybody believe in ghosts?
Posted: 26 December 2010 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 151 ]
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Phi- - 26 December 2010 03:01 PM
Write4U - 26 December 2010 02:41 PM

Phi,

Write4U - 26 December 2010 01:56 PM
This may be the reason for theists to see scientists as worshipping the “gods” of science, where mathematics may be an “god of numbers”. Of course scientists follow a single discipline in their particular field. In the spiritual world these disciplines may be identified as angels of the god of mathematics (i.e. angel of algebra, geometry, etc).
It is all metaphorical to account for the apparent intelligent behavior of the universe (universal laws). The problem lies in the humanization of these “spiritual” entities, assigning them intelligence and purpose in relation to human existence.

we don’t humanize the Jinns at all we see them as creatures who live in a different physical world and possess characterizations that we see as impossible to possess in our own universe , i can hardly imagine what atheists would say if scientists can proof the Multi-verse theory

Then how can the Jinn cross over into our universe? If they could not, how would we even know anything at all about them?
Your argument supports my posit of “metaphorical gods”.

I guess you haven’t read the wiki link ,anyway i’ll try answering you question

1- our universe is parallel to their universe but the mechanism is not yet understood , keep in mind they can manifest themselves in different forms
2- my argument doesn’t support yours , the spiritual world and the scientific world collide in the multiverse theory and that means the possibility to explain everything (which you see as spiritual) is more likely than treating these beings as “metaphorical gods”

1) in what different forms can Jinn manifest themselves?
2) But why should we expect to find Jinn (a completely spiritual concept)? Seems to me that, if there are multiple universes, we should perhaps start with how they are constructed, before we “assume” any intelligent life.

If life and specifically humans on earth is a miracle of “creation” performed by god, and intelligent life cannot be found elsewhere in this universe, then the assumption of intelligent life in another parallel universe is contradictory to scripture. Seems to me a classic case of “fools (spiritualists) rush in where wise men (scientists) fear to tread”.

[ Edited: 15 January 2011 10:26 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 26 December 2010 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 152 ]
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First, Pelagic was making a pun, a play on words, since jinn and gin (an alcoholic beverage) are pronounced the same in English.

Second, while there is the theory of parallel universes as part of quantum and string theory, there is no proof of their existence at present, even for scientists.  One cannot argue that because the mathematics seem to allow for the existence of such things, that therefore one cannot dismiss a metaphysical universe which may contain gods, angels, jinn, devils, etc. 

Third, while you stated in the Introduction that you felt you were sort of an agnostic, from your subsequent statements I believe you are judging your beliefs in reference to those around you.  It seems to me that you are still a theist, just less fundamentalist or extreme than those in your community.

fourth, as a scientist I see no value in even wasting time considering this metaphysical universe and its supposed occupants since no one has been able to demonstrate to me any evidence that it exists or that it has any effect on our physical world. 

Occam

[ Edited: 26 December 2010 03:36 PM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 26 December 2010 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 153 ]
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Write4U - 26 December 2010 03:13 PM
Phi- - 26 December 2010 03:01 PM
Write4U - 26 December 2010 02:41 PM

Phi,

Write4U - 26 December 2010 01:56 PM
This may be the reason for theists to see scientists as worshipping the “gods” of science, where mathematics may be an “god of numbers”. Of course scientists follow a single discipline in their particular field. In the spiritual world these disciplines may be identified as angels of the god of mathematics (i.e. angel of algebra, geometry, etc).
It is all metaphorical to account for the apparent intelligent behavior of the universe (universal laws). The problem lies in the humanization of these “spiritual” entities, assigning them intelligence and purpose in relation to human existence.

we don’t humanize the Jinns at all we see them as creatures who live in a different physical world and possess characterizations that we see as impossible to possess in our own universe , i can hardly imagine what atheists would say if scientists can proof the Multi-verse theory

Then how can the Jinn cross over into our universe? If they could not, how would we even know anything at all about them?
Your argument supports my posit of “metaphorical gods”.

I guess you haven’t read the wiki link ,anyway i’ll try answering you question

1- our universe is parallel to their universe but the mechanism is not yet understood , keep in mind they can manifest themselves in different forms
2- my argument doesn’t support yours , the spiritual world and the scientific world collide in the multiverse theory and that means the possibility to explain everything (which you see as spiritual) is more likely than treating these beings as “metaphorical gods”

1) in what different forms can Jinn manifest themselves?
2) But why shoulkd we expect to find Jinn (a completely spiritual concept)? Seems to me thgat , if there are multiple universes, we should perhaps start with how they are constructed, before we “assume” any intelligent life.

If life and specifically humans on earth is a miracle of “creation” performed by god and intelligent life cannot be found elsewhere in this universe, then the assumption of intelligent life in another paralleluniverse is contradictory to scripture. Seems to me a classic case of “fools (spiritualists) rush in where wise men (scientists) fear to tread”.

1- I’ll quote Wikipedia

A few traditions (hadith), divide jinn into three classes: those who have wings and fly in the air, those who resemble snakes and dogs, and those who travel about ceaselessly.Other reports claim that ‘Abd Allāh ibn Mas‘ūd (d. 652), who was accompanying Muhammad when the jinn came to hear his recitation of the Qur’an, described them as creatures of different forms; some resembling vultures and snakes, others tall men in white garb.[15] They may even appear as dragons, onagers, or a number of other animals. In addition to their animal forms, the jinn occasionally assume human form to mislead and destroy their human victims.

2-you have a point , but we can assume hypothetically that they exists in a parallel universe unless someone can proof otherwise

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Posted: 26 December 2010 03:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 154 ]
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Occam. - 26 December 2010 03:25 PM

Third, while you stated in the Introduction that you felt you were sort of between atheist and agnostic, from your subsequent statements I believe you are judging your beliefs in reference to those around you.  It seems to me that you are still a theist, just less fundamentalist or extreme than those in your community.

I said “for a short period of time ” and i think this short period of time has ended . so you have a point

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Posted: 26 December 2010 03:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 155 ]
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Quoting Phi-:

2-you have a point , but we can assume hypothetically that they exists in a parallel universe unless someone can proof otherwise

No, no, no, that is not logical, Phi-.  The burden of proof MUST be on the person declaring something.  It is not the job of others to disprove it.  I’ve found that while the education of scientists is quite good, it often lacks a few courses in critical thinking and logic.  You may want to check them out.

Occam

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Posted: 26 December 2010 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 156 ]
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Phi- - 26 December 2010 03:26 PM
Write4U - 26 December 2010 03:13 PM
Phi- - 26 December 2010 03:01 PM
Write4U - 26 December 2010 02:41 PM

Phi,

Write4U - 26 December 2010 01:56 PM
This may be the reason for theists to see scientists as worshipping the “gods” of science, where mathematics may be an “god of numbers”. Of course scientists follow a single discipline in their particular field. In the spiritual world these disciplines may be identified as angels of the god of mathematics (i.e. angel of algebra, geometry, etc).
It is all metaphorical to account for the apparent intelligent behavior of the universe (universal laws). The problem lies in the humanization of these “spiritual” entities, assigning them intelligence and purpose in relation to human existence.

we don’t humanize the Jinns at all we see them as creatures who live in a different physical world and possess characterizations that we see as impossible to possess in our own universe , i can hardly imagine what atheists would say if scientists can proof the Multi-verse theory

Then how can the Jinn cross over into our universe? If they could not, how would we even know anything at all about them?
Your argument supports my posit of “metaphorical gods”.

I guess you haven’t read the wiki link ,anyway i’ll try answering you question

1- our universe is parallel to their universe but the mechanism is not yet understood , keep in mind they can manifest themselves in different forms
2- my argument doesn’t support yours , the spiritual world and the scientific world collide in the multiverse theory and that means the possibility to explain everything (which you see as spiritual) is more likely than treating these beings as “metaphorical gods”

1) in what different forms can Jinn manifest themselves?
2) But why shoulkd we expect to find Jinn (a completely spiritual concept)? Seems to me thgat , if there are multiple universes, we should perhaps start with how they are constructed, before we “assume” any intelligent life.

If life and specifically humans on earth is a miracle of “creation” performed by god and intelligent life cannot be found elsewhere in this universe, then the assumption of intelligent life in another paralleluniverse is contradictory to scripture. Seems to me a classic case of “fools (spiritualists) rush in where wise men (scientists) fear to tread”.

1- I’ll quote Wikipedia

A few traditions (hadith), divide jinn into three classes: those who have wings and fly in the air, those who resemble snakes and dogs, and those who travel about ceaselessly.Other reports claim that ‘Abd Allāh ibn Mas‘ūd (d. 652), who was accompanying Muhammad when the jinn came to hear his recitation of the Qur’an, described them as creatures of different forms; some resembling vultures and snakes, others tall men in white garb.[15] They may even appear as dragons, onagers, or a number of other animals. In addition to their animal forms, the jinn occasionally assume human form to mislead and destroy their human victims.

2-you have a point , but we can assume hypothetically that they exists in a parallel universe unless someone can proof otherwise

Just because Wiki shows a definition of the usage of a word, does not mean that this or any definition is proof of existence. Wiki is just a book of definitions for words, without claiming to be proof of anything.
On the other hand, theists claim that the very holiness of the words contained in scripture Are proof, which of course they are not.

[ Edited: 26 December 2010 04:28 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 15 January 2011 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 157 ]
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Occam. - 26 December 2010 03:34 PM

  The burden of proof MUST be on the person declaring something.

Occam

The person declaring something WHAT?

Declaring that something exists, or declaring that something doesn’t exist?

Or just declaring something you choose not to believe in?

Theflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 15 January 2011 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 158 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 15 January 2011 03:32 PM
Occam. - 26 December 2010 03:34 PM

  The burden of proof MUST be on the person declaring something.

Occam

The person declaring something WHAT?

Declaring that something exists, or declaring that something doesn’t exist?

Or just declaring something you choose not to believe in?

Theflyingsorcerer.

Why would there be reason to believe in something based on heresay and for which there is absolutely no proof? By your argument, one can declare “anything” for which there exists no proof and pose a challenge to disprove it. But it does not work that way. This is why science has strict rules (contrary to spiritualism), one of which is that it is up the person, making the assertion that something exists, to prove that “fact” by direct or at least inferred evidence. Science is NOT a “faith based” discipline.
Think about it, I am sure you will see the validity of the “scientific approach”.

[ Edited: 15 January 2011 04:06 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 15 January 2011 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 159 ]
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Flyingsorcerer, although Psi-‘s post was a little unclear, he seems to be saying (in post #153 above) that we can postulate aliens unless someone can disprove their existence.  As you probably know, it’s the job of the person declaring something to prove it.  While others may disbelieve it, they don’t have the responsibility of trying to disprove it (that is, to prove a negative).  Example, in our judicial system people are never forced to prove their innocence, rather they are “proved not guilty.”

Occam

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Posted: 17 January 2011 05:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 160 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 15 January 2011 03:32 PM
Occam. - 26 December 2010 03:34 PM

  The burden of proof MUST be on the person declaring something.

Occam

The person declaring something WHAT?

Declaring that something exists, or declaring that something doesn’t exist?

Or just declaring something you choose not to believe in?

Theflyingsorcerer.

Probably just saying no one has otherwise provided sufficient evidence for them to believe the claim.

If you get abducted then you’d know the reality of what you experienced. However you can’t expect someone else to accept your claim without some verifiable evidence to back it up. I could claim I’m from Jupiter. Are you going to accept that claim without me providing some proof? Or are you going to set about trying to prove I’m not from Jupiter?

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Posted: 20 April 2011 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 161 ]
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Occam. - 18 November 2010 04:44 PM

When someone can show that any of these claimed phenomena really do exist, then we can investigate and possibly develop new theories that fit them.

I feel the same way. wink

-RC

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Posted: 27 April 2011 10:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 162 ]
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I do.  I just doubt it is the dead…  Maybe another form of life here or we’re on a different frequency.  I still question the after life.  But I do know one can go OUT OF BODY.  So yes, I do but I think they get spooked also.  I have had entities in like 4 homes.  I began to think the followed me from place to place.  We were wrapping presents last Christmas for our Daughter and we have seen and heard a little girl in the hallway a few times before.  That night our dog went crazy while we were wrapping stuff.  It slept in the room(bed) with our daughter.  I could hear in his bark that it was something he did not like.  We opened our room door to investigate.  I could not believe what I heard.  Some LADY was telling our dog SHHHH it’s OK..shhhh it’s ok calm down Hunter.  Like at least 3-5 times.  We thought someone was in her room.  I grabbed my “intruder protection” ran in there.  The dog was on the floor like he saw something.  My wife and I heard a woman clearly talking to our dog trying to calm him.  He wasn’t liking this entity.  I ended up clearing my whole house and nothing.  We try and not tell or Daughter about ghosts but she saw the little girl like a week after the first time we saw her.  Now how in the heck would she see the same girl when we never told her about it.  It was so strange that my wife didn’t want to tell me cause she knew it would bother me.  I have asked whatever is in my home to leave to a better place so they can evolve.  Little to no activity lately.  Yes there is some sort of life among us and if you doubt that then I wish you see something one day.  I question god and afterlife but not “ghosts” or whatever they are.  REAL REAL REAL!

PEOPLE “CLAIM” to not be susceptible to these things….I laugh at them(while we’re discussing strange stuff).  We all are..Some are just a little slow to see. It might take them until they are on their death bed to see one.  But all people do eventually or just never connected the dots and realize that ghosts do things in homes and they never noticed….  You can’t deny forever
A lot of people even keep stuff to themselves in fear of being called crazy.

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Posted: 27 April 2011 10:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 163 ]
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OGMONKEY - 27 April 2011 10:00 PM

I do.  I just doubt it is the dead…  Maybe another form of life here or we’re on a different frequency.  I still question the after life.  But I do know one can go OUT OF BODY.  So yes, I do but I think they get spooked also.  I have had entities in like 4 homes.  I began to think the followed me from place to place.  We were wrapping presents last Christmas for our Daughter and we have seen and heard a little girl in the hallway a few times before.  That night our dog went crazy while we were wrapping stuff.  It slept in the room(bed) with our daughter.  I could hear in his bark that it was something he did not like.  We opened our room door to investigate.  I could not believe what I heard.  Some LADY was telling our dog SHHHH it’s OK..shhhh it’s ok calm down Hunter.  Like at least 3-5 times.  We thought someone was in her room.  I grabbed my “intruder protection” ran in there.  The dog was on the floor like he saw something.  My wife and I heard a woman clearly talking to our dog trying to calm him.  He wasn’t liking this entity.  I ended up clearing my whole house and nothing.  We try and not tell or Daughter about ghosts but she saw the little girl like a week after the first time we saw her.  Now how in the heck would she see the same girl when we never told her about it.  It was so strange that my wife didn’t want to tell me cause she knew it would bother me.  I have asked whatever is in my home to leave to a better place so they can evolve.  Little to no activity lately.  Yes there is some sort of life among us and if you doubt that then I wish you see something one day.  I question god and afterlife but not “ghosts” or whatever they are.  REAL REAL REAL!

PEOPLE “CLAIM” to not be susceptible to these things….I laugh at them(while we’re discussing strange stuff).  We all are..Some are just a little slow to see. It might take them until they are on their death bed to see one.  But all people do eventually or just never connected the dots and realize that ghosts do things in homes and they never noticed….  You can’t deny forever
A lot of people even keep stuff to themselves in fear of being called crazy.

Could it have been your brain just creating the sensations?

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