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Poll
Have you ever calmy and logically debated young earthers?
Yes 9
No 3
No, but I’d like to 1
No, and I have no interest in it 4
Total Votes: 17
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Looking for debaters for young earthers
Posted: 06 February 2010 11:51 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Answers in Genesis (AiG), Ken Ham’s Ministry (the guy who brought us the creation museum), is on Facebook here:
http://www.facebook.com/AnswersInGenesis?ref=mf#!/AnswersInGenesis?v=feed&story_fbid=5003891285116

They list some articles with some debate possible in the content field.  I’ve been debating some of their young earth supporters.  We need some more atheist debaters for them.  We need people who can be calm and reasonable, not give a bad atheist witness by jumping on there and making personal attacks.

Richard Dawkins wrote the book on evolution.  If you studied it and want to try it out, try it with these people.

...Bernie
http://www.meetup.com/sciligion/

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Posted: 07 February 2010 12:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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It was about 30 years ago and she was a 7th day adventist co-worker. I’d never known ‘young earthers’ existed until that point, and thought it was an anomaly confined to her religion until just recently. She ended up in tears trying to defend her position (honestly, I did not attack her personally, I was just presenting facts that refuted her singular argument—the bible), it did not go well, and she never brought it up again.

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Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

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Posted: 07 February 2010 08:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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There is no point in debating someone who believes an invisible man created the universe 6,000 years ago. Anyone who believes that is capable of believing anything they like, and incapable of rational discourse on the topic.

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“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
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Posted: 07 February 2010 02:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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DarronS - 07 February 2010 08:29 AM

There is no point in debating someone who believes an invisible man created the universe 6,000 years ago. Anyone who believes that is capable of believing anything they like, and incapable of rational discourse on the topic.

I disagree, and I think that attitude is one major reason why young earthers have grown so much and got to the size that they are.  I think too many are afraid or unable to rationally debate them, so young earthers falsely conclude that they have valid logic.

If everyone thought that there was no use in debates, then we’d have none.  Just demonize the other side and dismiss them.  I think it is the easy and lazy way out.  Just my opinion.

...Bernie

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Posted: 07 February 2010 08:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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On further reflection, I think our difference of opinion may have to do more with whether one is an optimist or pessimist.

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Posted: 07 February 2010 10:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Bernie_Dehler - 07 February 2010 08:55 PM

On further reflection, I think our difference of opinion may have to do more with whether one is an optimist or pessimist.

I call it experience. wink

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Posted: 07 February 2010 10:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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I for one am a former Christian who believed it all at various times: young earth, old earth, ID, evolutionary creationism.  It was an atheist who reached-out and confronted me that made me accept evolution.  He pointed me to the youtube video of Ken Miller talking about fused human chromosome #2.  This was before Francis Collins’ book “The Language of God” where Collins also explains it.  I was a Christian looking and searching for the truth, and I accepted it when it was gently pointed out to me.  Finally, I couldn’t figure out how to reconcile evolution with the bible, so I left Christianity.  The best theologian, I think, who attempted to synthesize the two was Denis Lamoureux in his book “Evolutionary Creation.”  Here’s Denis’ concise essay on the issue:
http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/3EvoCr.htm

Denis is very interesting because he’s an evangelical Christian with three Ph.D’s (two in science and one in theology).

...Bernie
http://www.meetup.com/sciligion/

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Posted: 07 February 2010 10:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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We need people like you taking on the Creationists, Bernie. I did my share in my younger days, but I am too busy right now* to waste time debating people who practice magical thinking. Just because it is a waste for me does not mean it is a waste for you. Go for it and good luck.

*I’ll have time again in a few years and will have your back then.

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Posted: 07 February 2010 10:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Thanks.  I do enjoy it.  It is challenging because it involves so many things, like history, theology, and science.  It is a great way to learn about science, when trying to answer their questions (about multiverse theory, biology, etc.).  For young earthers, I think it mainly boils down to, many times, their ignorance on modern science and their worshipping of the ‘god of the gaps.’  many of them never heard about ‘the god of the gaps’ so I’m breaking the news to them.  Also the news about DNA genomic evidence for evolution which I think is relatively recent and so obviously supports evolution.  I think they also wonder how one can live without god, so they need someone (from the other side) to discuss their roadblocks regarding it.  I also like to give them scripture wink

Proverbs 18:17
The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.

...Bernie

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Posted: 08 February 2010 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Bernie commendable goal.  As someone who feels the same calling let me warn you, it’s filled with much heartbreak and swings into shear hopelessness.  But, it’s better than giving up.

I don’t know if your familiar with some of the stuff available at YouTube, if not

Check out post #3 at Teacher, looking for skepticism/critical thinking resources

good luck, peter

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Posted: 08 February 2010 11:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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“As someone who feels the same calling let me warn you, it’s filled with much heartbreak and swings into shear hopelessness.”

I think it is hopeful if one is looking for long-term results.  Short term, we can’t expect someone to say “Gee, you’re right, thanks for telling me that, I’m leaving Christianity now.”

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Posted: 10 February 2010 01:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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I enjoy debates like this as well. Even though certain people may not immediately admit they have changed their mind, I think the knowledge you have given them eventually boils up to the surface at some point, because you can’t deny facts like evolution once you understand it.

EDIT: I would help you but facebook is blocked at work and by the time I get home I’m not up for hardcore debate anymore smile

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“What people do is they confuse cynicism with skepticism. Cynicism is ‘you can’t change anything, everything sucks, there’s no point to anything.’ Skepticism is, ‘well, I’m not so sure.’” -Bill Nye

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Posted: 11 February 2010 10:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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I enjoy the debate also, though it is hard not to get worked up when your best logic just doesn’t sink in.  It is hard to explain rationally to an irrational person that they are being irrational.  To them this is a rational argument:  “Two thousand years ago someone died on the cross for me, so the least I can do is believe in Him”.

I agree, though, that even if it does not seem like you are getting through, they churn on it, with that little seed of doubt starting to grow.  Nobody gives in to the debate on the spot.  And of course, it is not your opponent you are trying to win over to your side, but the audience.

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J.K. Fausnight

When I was 15 years old, I could no longer reconcile religion with reality, and I knew one of them would have to go.  It still amazes me how many people make the other choice.

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Posted: 12 February 2010 02:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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I enjoy debate with other rational individuals who are willing to go wherever the evidence leads them. Unfortunately, in my experience the YECs tend not to fit that description. I used to be a theist myself and went where the evidence and best arguments lead. Although I don’t get emotional in debate, I will walk away when simple reasoning isn’t registering with someone else. I reach points where it’s just not worth the effort for me and/or they simply are unwilling to change their position. I have to say, the biggest reason for me is most of them simply aren’t willing to question their assumptions objectively.

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Posted: 12 February 2010 03:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I just took a quick look at the “debate” over there. I got annoyed just reading through it. Those people aren’t concerned about rational thought. They’re solely concerned about appearing “right.” I see at various points, the age of the Earth is being debated. Here’s a video I’d like to see them argue against:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5369-OobM4

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Posted: 12 February 2010 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Kaizen - 12 February 2010 03:26 AM

Those people aren’t concerned about rational thought.
They’re solely concerned about appearing “right.”
Here’s a video I’d like to see them argue against:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5369-OobM4


You nailed it.  That’s why I’ve gotten a bit more militant. such as… what gives ‘you’ the right to presume you can know god’s mind?  Just because ‘you’ have a sliver of truth, real... full  truth is much bigger than what ‘you’, or I, can grasp. 
After that pummel ‘em with real world facts, data.  It seems to me they’ve erected this bubble of protection and they know damn well as soon as one serious crack develops their faith system will pop and crumble around them. 
They need something to reach for,  therein lies the challenge…

Yea Potholer54 has a whole bunch of video worth watching.
You’ve inspired me to share some quick links to fun info sources.

QualiaSoup
some fun simple, yet thoughtful presentations of difficult arguments

Potholer54
Various interesting series including: Origin of Life & Evolution Made Easy

DonExodus2
This guy gets down to the nuts and bolts of the science

Thunderf00t
A spirited series “Why do people laugh at creationists?” 
plus other very worthy biosphere educational videos.
~ ~ ~

happy trails, peter
{http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com

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