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The sick mind of Islam.
Posted: 23 June 2006 07:44 AM   [ Ignore ]
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The following was published by my local newspaper The Star

[b:e66fb788fa][color=green:e66fb788fa]You are a 70-year-old woman who can hardly walk, but you need to go shopping, so you head for a busy market. Next thing, you find yourself in prison. That’s what occurred in the Saudi Arabian capital, Riyadh, after the woman was picked up by officers of the religious police, the Commission for the Protection of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice. They suspected her of "unlawful seclusion", ie, a sexual liaison, when she entered a shop occupied by only the male owner. She was released after a brief spell in jail.
That’s the danger in appointing professional zealots who depend on detecting sin to justify their salaries.[/color:e66fb788fa][/b:e66fb788fa]

This article is not about religious extremism or religious insanity. It simply shows that when you apply religious laws to its proper conclusion this is what happens.

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Fayzal Mahamed,
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Posted: 23 June 2006 07:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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The sick mind of Islam.

The following was published by my local newspaper The Star

You are a 70-year-old woman who can hardly walk, but you need to go shopping, so you head for a busy market. Next thing, you find yourself in prison. That’s what occurred in the Saudi Arabian capital, Riyadh, after the woman was picked up by officers of the religious police, the Commission for the Protection of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice. They suspected her of “unlawful seclusion”, ie, a sexual liaison, when she entered a shop occupied by only the male owner. She was released after a brief spell in jail.
That’s the danger in appointing professional zealots who depend on detecting sin to justify their salaries.

This article is not about religious extremism or religious insanity. It simply shows that when you apply religious laws to its proper conclusion this is what happens.

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Fayzal Mahamed,
Johannesburg, South Africa.

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Posted: 23 June 2006 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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This is really crazy, Fayzal. Shows how sex-obsessed are the people enforcing the laws ...

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Posted: 20 August 2006 08:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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[quote author=“dougsmith”]This is really crazy, Fayzal. Shows how sex-obsessed are the people enforcing the laws ...

Or really, just the laws.

In this case it is hard to know both sides of the story.  My instinct tells me that nothing really happened with the woman and the story owner, but you never know.  I guess the real point to be made is that you can go to JAIL for something like this (if it did indeed happen).

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Posted: 21 August 2006 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Anybody watch American Dad on Fox?  One of their episodes makes fun of this very part of Islam.

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Fighting the evil belief that there is a god(s).

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Posted: 21 August 2006 09:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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True or False?

[quote author=“Mark”]  My instinct tells me that nothing really happened with the woman and the story owner, but you never know.

The story I related is sourced from a well known generally unbiased newspaper called ” The Star” .

I always believe that a reputable paper would not print something that is false and I presume that the newspaper would check and verify its sources before printing any information.

On the other hand if my “instincts” suggested that the story printed was false, then this is a serious allegation. I would ensure that before I made my instincts known I would go out of my way to check if the story printed was true by going to the sources of that story such as in Saudi Arabia and corresponding with the media there to check up if the incident actually happened.

So tell me Mark, how did you verify your “instincts” ?

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Posted: 22 August 2006 03:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Re: True or False?

[quote author=“mfmahamed”]
So tell me Mark, how did you verify your “instincts” ?

I’m just not quick to believe everything I read, particularly on the Internet.  Media manipulation and bias is nothing new to me here in the United States.  It is sad that day-to-day I have to question the news I read (though to be fair I generally go to international sources to try to avoid the problem).

“Instinct” was probably poor word choice.  Based on what I know about how the Islam world views and treats women, and other accounts similar to this one, I chose to believe what you posted simply because it was consistent with my prior knowledge.  Of course, if I allowed myself that freedom (i.e., no critical thought) with everything floating around out here, I would probably be a zombie living an empty life.

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Posted: 23 August 2006 03:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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You are right Mark, we can’t believe what we read, sad.
FX there is a story going around about a QA a session that a Muslim cleric to prisoners supposedly had with a questioner. The story is totally false, there is no cleric, there is no questioner but I’m sure most readers believe every word of it.
Jim

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Jimmie Keyes
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Posted: 30 August 2006 05:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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What Muslims do is not neccessarily what Islam teaches. Why are you guys going around bashing Islam according to what you see a certain Muslims or group of Muslims do not understanding or knowing what Islam teaches? We don’t go around and back bite or slander priest so and so that just rape the newest nun in the ‘sanctuary’ or molested the little boy who came for confession.

Do you feel good bashing someones religion? Does it make you feel powerful or great?

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http://www.muslimspace.com/salahdin
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Posted: 30 August 2006 05:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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It’s quite unfair to assume that our criticisms of religion and supernatural beliefs are simply subconscious efforts to assuage our own egos and lust for power!  That’s ridiculous, and unfounded.  When one sees injustice or irrationality in the world around them, one might do as we have and speak out against it.  That is the nature of having a social conscious and of having a cogent philosophy. 

We’re not explicitly here to “bash” Islam, as you have claimed, but we do feel obligated and entitled to discuss the religion and its claims.  You are certainly welcome to discuss and critique the claims of science and secularism if you like!  We won’t recoil and express disgust that you question our ways - in fact, questioning is exactly what we’re fighting for…

Again, I’m glad you’re on these forums, and as Doug said, please let us know where we get Islamic beliefs wrong.  But please keep in mind that just as there are many different varieties of Christian (liberal vs. fundamentalist, for example), not all Muslims would agree with your interpretation.

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Posted: 30 August 2006 06:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Yes, Salah, we aren’t intending to ‘bash’ any religion, but rather to inquire and critique religious practice, which is not often done in this or any other country. I can understand from a personal point of view (and especially given the atrocious policies of the US) that you would feel particularly beset when we discuss Islam. But we do the same sort of critique of all religions, creeds and belief systems ... or we ought to.

You mention nuns and priests—we are also very open to critiquing the Catholic church. Indeed, one of our members here was molested by a priest when he was young ... I believe his story is still up in a thread here somewhere.

But to be clear: there is a difference in my eyes between “bashing” and “inquiring, investigating or critiquing”. The first is just name-calling, and in the final analysis gets us nowhere, since we understand nothing better by the end of it.

The second is the essence of the enlightenment project of understanding. (And, by the way, the roots of the enlightenment go back to the Renaissance in Europe. The roots of the Renaissance in Europe go back to the Islamic centers of the Middle East which had preserved and commented on the writings of the Ancient Greeks. But I’m sure you already know that).

So, to understand these religions we must critique and investigate them. That means being willing to find things wrong with them.

But of course, as you say, there are all sorts of practitioners. We tend to critique more the extremes, since they are easier targets and their arguments are so much weaker. Perhaps you can help us to understand a more open, moderate sort of Muslim practice. No need to get upset though. I think it’s great you’re here.

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Posted: 30 August 2006 07:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Muslim Bashing

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”]What Muslims do is not neccessarily what Islam teaches. Why are you guys going around bashing Islam according to what you see a certain Muslims or group of Muslims do not understanding or knowing what Islam teaches?

Salah ad-din’s response is typical of a religious person when confronted with the “unsavoury” aspects of his beliefs and instead of attacking the message simply attacks the messenger.

Being critical of religious beliefs does not imply Muslim bashing. Is Salah ad-din implying that when Secular Humanist are confronted by gross human rights violations we should be quiet lest we offend the religious person.

Another strange way that Salah ad-din tries to correct our understanding of his religious beliefs is by stating we “do not know what Islam teaches” , yet makes no attempt to explain that teaching in comparison to the application of the Islamic Sharia by the Saudi authorities. Then the question remains “Does the Saudi authorities know what Islam teaches?”

Finally, the statement

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”][color=gray] We don’t go around and back bite or slander priest so and so that just rape the newest nun in the ‘sanctuary’ or molested the little boy who came for confession.

is amazingly STUPID to put out on a secular humanist blog. Instead of covering up for the atrocities of the paedophile priest and a thereafter hoping that the Church is quiet on the attrocities of the Muslim Imaam,  :oops: THE CORRECT WAY OF SERVING HUMANITY IS BY EXPOSING BOTH THE IMAAM AND THE PRIEST.

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Posted: 30 August 2006 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Re: Muslim Bashing

[quote author=“mfmahamed”]is amazingly STUPID to put out on a secular humanist blog. Instead of covering up for the atrocities of the paedophile priest and a thereafter hoping that the Church is quiet on the attrocities of the Muslim Imaam,  :oops: THE CORRECT WAY OF SERVING HUMANITY IS BY EXPOSING BOTH THE IMAAM AND THE PRIEST.

I agree.  I don’t mind if “people of faith” participate here.  By all means, it makes for more interesting discussions.  They just need to realize where they are, and who they are talking to (but I don’t discourage it).

As far as bashing a particular religion goes, I pretty much take aim at any of them :D.

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Posted: 31 August 2006 02:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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I happen to think that the report Fayzal published here did occur and that things like that do occur regularly in places like Saudi Arabia where there is a state religion and there are cops who enforce their view of what it requires of its citizens.

I am equally certain that were Christianity to become the state religion here we would have gays put to death for their lifestyle, women deemed guilty of adultery also killed by state enforcers and a new inquisition would begin with government bureaucrats at it helm.
The only good thing about that is they probably would end up killing each other and not us. (Bureaucracy in action Katrina style)

Fayzals comments are a critique of state religion and I don’t view them as a critique of the Muslim faith.

If we want to get into that I have no problem. I happen to think muslims are directed to kill infidels wherever they find them. I think the laws of the country they live in keep muslims in check and sometimes that doesn’t work. Witness the father who killed his daughter in New York state for dating and planning to wed someone he did not select for her.

Jim

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Jimmie Keyes
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. (MLK Jr.)

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Posted: 31 August 2006 04:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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[quote author=“jimmiekeyes”]I happen to think that the report Fayzal published here did occur and that things like that do occur regularly in places like Saudi Arabia where there is a state religion and there are cops who enforce their view of what it requires of its citizens.

Right, Jim, but we have to distinguish between extremist (Wahhabist) Islamic states like Saudi Arabia and more moderate ones like Turkey and Morocco, for example. It’s like distinguishing between 16th and 21st century Spain ... both nominally Catholic countries, but with different notions of what religion demands, and different practices.

[quote author=“jimmiekeyes”]I happen to think muslims are directed to kill infidels wherever they find them. I think the laws of the country they live in keep muslims in check and sometimes that doesn’t work. Witness the father who killed his daughter in New York state for dating and planning to wed someone he did not select for her.

I doubt it’s quite so simple. The problem with so many religious books (the Bible is a sterling example) is that one can find basically anything one wants to find there—“thou shalt not kill” and “kill the infidels and take their virgins captive” (Numbers 31; Deuteronomy 20:13-14) are two.

I am sure that someone well-versed in the Koran can find both sorts of messages there as well. Then the overarching question is which quotes they want to pay attention to, and which quotes they want to forget. (Indeed, since for Moslems the Bible is also a holy book, they will have the same problems with biblical contradictions as the Christians do).

Just ran across this site: The Skeptic’s Annotated Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon . Very interesting. I will put it up in another thread as well.

... and here I find the passages I was concerned with in the Koran:

2:109: “Many of the people of the Scripture [Christians and Jews] long to make you disbelievers…. Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command.”

9:29: “Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah.”

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Posted: 01 September 2006 02:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Yep, You can find anything you want to find in these books, but I think today the dominant theme of those who are in positions of leadership is the Wahabist theme, the one that says: there is no god but “Allah”.
Jim

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Jimmie Keyes
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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. (MLK Jr.)

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