[quote author=“jimmiekeyes”]Yep, You can find anything you want to find in these books, but I think today the dominant theme of those who are in positions of leadership is the Wahabist theme, the one that says: there is no god but “Allah”.
Jim

Certainly, with Saudi money, Wahhabism is on the rise ... but it is a Sunni sect, and as such at odds with the Shias of Iran, who also have money and power. Both are basically fundamentalist, as I understand the term, but they’re like fundamentalist Catholics and Protestants—at base, they disagree. So there are nuances here.

Also, as I say, there are Islamic countries in which this sort of fundamentalism is very much a minority opinion. GWB’s incompetent policies, of course, are managing only to increase it.

I’d like to hear from Fayzal on this but I believe the Shiites and Sunnis have no disagreement on the relationship of Muslim to Infidel - their disagreement goes back to who was the heir to Muhammad. So Shiite or Sunni its all the same when it comes to us.
J

[quote author=“HolyAvenger”]It’s quite unfair to assume that our criticisms of religion and supernatural beliefs are simply subconscious efforts to assuage our own egos and lust for power!  That’s ridiculous, and unfounded.  When one sees injustice or irrationality in the world around them, one might do as we have and speak out against it.  That is the nature of having a social conscious and of having a cogent philosophy. 

We’re not explicitly here to “bash” Islam, as you have claimed, but we do feel obligated and entitled to discuss the religion and its claims.  You are certainly welcome to discuss and critique the claims of science and secularism if you like!  We won’t recoil and express disgust that you question our ways - in fact, questioning is exactly what we’re fighting for…

Again, I’m glad you’re on these forums, and as Doug said, please let us know where we get Islamic beliefs wrong.  But please keep in mind that just as there are many different varieties of Christian (liberal vs. fundamentalist, for example), not all Muslims would agree with your interpretation.

In order to be entitled to discuss Islam and its claims, you would have to know what Islam is first, and secondly you’d have to know what Islam claims.

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”]In order to be entitled to discuss Islam and its claims, you would have to know what Islam is first, and secondly you’d have to know what Islam claims.

OK, so help us out then. Don’t just leave it hanging. What do you see Islam to be? What do you see are its claims?

I know you can refer us to separate websites, but I think for the purposes of this forum, it would be nice to get this in your words.

Sunni or Shia fundamentalism.

[quote author=“jimmiekeyes”]I’d like to hear from Fayzal on this but I believe the Shiites and Sunnis have no disagreement on the relationship of Muslim to Infidel - their disagreement goes back to who was the heir to Muhammad. So Shiite or Sunni its all the same when it comes to us.
J

Yes you quite right Jimmie, from an outside point of view there is no major difference between Sunni’s and Shia’s from a theological point.

However from a political point there are major differences since power lies at a central point amongst the Shia Imaams in Iran / Iraq whereas amongst the Sunni’s power is dispersed amongst each community of Muslims. For example Pakistan will have it’s own theologians interpreting the law based on the Quran, Sunnah and their particular history and environment. Same with Saudi Arabia and so you will find that Sharia laws are some times different in each respective country.

But the bottom line is that from an authoritive point of view there is only a fundamental interpretation of Islamic laws i.e. the Islamic Sharia. All attempts by individuals to re-interpret the Sharia to bring it in line with a “modern world” is doomed because the interpretation of the Sharia has been historically set by 5 Imaam a hundred or so years after the demise of Prophet Muhammad.

I therefore find it very funny when a few Muslim individuals attemp to bring a liberal interpretation of Islamic laws. I normally ask on whose authority are you doing so? It’s like some maverick Catholic priest dishing out condoms so that his parish can practice safe sex. It’s great and wonderful that such a priest can express a dissenting opinion but it doesn’t change the fact that the Pope has banned condom use.

Finally I want to add that fundamentally there is no major difference from an OUTSIDE point of view to ALL THREE MONOTHEISTIC RELIGIONS, i.e Judaism, Christianity and Islam. An infidel is an infidel in all three religions. Fortunately there are NO countries with a Christian and Jewish theology (although America under Bush get’s close to one) but plenty of countries still practicing Islamic theology.

Yes Fayzal, we already beat that horse to death didn’t we?
Jim

Fayzal’s post on this is pretty similar to what I’ve come to believe as well. But I’d still like to hear Salah’s opinions on all this ... I hope he sticks around a little.

[quote author=“dougsmith”][quote author=“Salah ad-din”]In order to be entitled to discuss Islam and its claims, you would have to know what Islam is first, and secondly you’d have to know what Islam claims.

OK, so help us out then. Don’t just leave it hanging. What do you see Islam to be? What do you see are its claims?

I know you can refer us to separate websites, but I think for the purposes of this forum, it would be nice to get this in your words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

Islam is all about peace. Terrorism is not what it teaches. It’s all about love and praying to one God. This is Islam.

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”]Islam is all about peace. Terrorism is not what it teaches. It’s all about love and praying to one God. This is Islam.

Very good, but that’s rather a thin sort of doctrine, no? I mean, many Christians and Jews also preach peace and love, and pray to one god. Are they then Muslim?

Many atheists preach peace and love. Why isn’t that enough?

I think Muslims say that Islam is a religion of peace as Christians say Christianity is about love and forgiveness.  But both are the same in regards to how their left hands do not do what the right hand is doing.  Call it speaking out of both sides of your mouth if you will.  George Bush (a self-professed Christian) does everything he can to save unborn babies (by preventing stem cell research) but at the same time orders the killings of Iraqi children by the hundreds (perhaps thousands).  Muslims worship their “peaceful” God Allah, but demonstrate his peace by blowing up themselves, their enemies, and utterly repressing their women (and children, and themselves).

But I guess it just depends on what flavor of religion you like.  It seems like you can pretty much make it up as you go and put your own words in God’s mouth and enact your own agenda on his behalf.  And why wouldn’t you?  Who is there to say that what you say isn’t what God wants?  Despite God’s omnipotent powers, he has not once ever stepped up and clarified his intentions or his will.  So the ignorance and atrocity will continue on as long as religion is around.

Well said
J