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Christian "LOVE" - Pretentious, Hypocritical &
Posted: 30 June 2006 07:58 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Christian Love - Pretentious, Hypocritical and Condescending. 


Years ago when I was a teenager I remember reading in The Star newspaper an innovative saying by a writer of what LOVE is all about. What caught my attention and made a lasting impression were the words.

[color=green:55d2f29204][b:55d2f29204][size=18:55d2f29204]¤Love is¸¸never having to say you sorryË.[/size:55d2f29204][/b:55d2f29204][/color:55d2f29204]

Since those opening words of wisdom there came a thousand interpretations and sayings of the emotion of LOVE. I also remember agreeing with ALL those interpretations since they expressed a universal idea of what love is all about and I don╠t remember any person disputing with those interpretations, UNTIL NOW.

Since I started posting my opinions on some blogs as to why many aspects of religion is IMMORAL, I have frequently come across Christians, who instead of addressing the issue at hand will simply state that [b:55d2f29204]Jesus loves me or Jesus loves.[/b:55d2f29204]

Maybe I am wrong or I may have a misunderstanding, but exactly what is meant by Jesus Loves or Jesus loves me. I mean I understood all the sayings of Love and not once did I come across a saying called

[color=red:55d2f29204][b:55d2f29204]Love is¸¸¸¸ Jesus                                 OR

Love is ¸¸¸¸Jesus saves you.[/b:55d2f29204][/color:55d2f29204]

Now please correct me if I am wrong but I think all humans understand the concept of love. We know how a father or mother expresses love to their children, we know how lovers express love amongst themselves, and we know even how animals display the affections of love but I fail to understand the concept of Jesus Loves or the concept of Christian love.

Could some Christian please explain to me what the characteristic of this love is and what is so special and unique about this love.

When I look at Christians generally I find that this so called love is no different from the love expressed by all human beings in general. That is when Christian parents love their children this love is the same as when for example a Buddhist mother might love her child or an atheist father might love his child. Or the fact that when a Christian lover amorously displays his or her love, it is no different in content than how two Hindu lovers may show their affection towards each other. So what is it that is so unique about this [b:55d2f29204]CHRISTIAN LOVE?[/b:55d2f29204]

I admit I write this article with a certain amount of anger directed at those Christians who freely bandy this Christian Love to everyone they meet and engage with. I see it as a pretentious and hypocritical behavior trying to disguise their true feelings towards others. Often Christian Love comes across a some sort of charity that becomes very offensive if the recipient never asked for this charity in the first place.

[b:55d2f29204]In many of my writings I have made it known that I do not need the sanctimonious, condescending love of Christians nor of Jesus in order for me to be happy and live a fulfilled life. I often felt offended when Christians disregarded what I have written to state in their comments Jesus Loves or we will ¤pray for youË. Surely there is a level of simple manners that we can all agree to (even Christians).[/b:55d2f29204]

Finally like my two articles previously giving indication of how Christians come across as [b:55d2f29204]SUPREMACIST.[/b:55d2f29204] [color=green:55d2f29204][b:55d2f29204]Stating that you love all of humanity and then condemning a seemingly innocent class of people to HELL simply because they do not subscribe to your belief system is not the kind of love that any person will find universally endearing[/b:55d2f29204][/color:55d2f29204].

I will conclude by adding a saying of what love is that should be universally acceptable to all human beings.

[color=red:55d2f29204][b:55d2f29204]LOVE IS….... HAVING TO SAY THAT ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE EQUAL (immaterial of your religious or irreligious belief, gender, sexual orientation, race, culture).[/b:55d2f29204][/color:55d2f29204]

Fayzal.

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Fayzal Mahamed,
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Posted: 30 June 2006 07:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Christian "LOVE" - Pretentious, Hypocritical &

Christian Love - Pretentious, Hypocritical and Condescending. 


Years ago when I was a teenager I remember reading in The Star newspaper an innovative saying by a writer of what LOVE is all about. What caught my attention and made a lasting impression were the words.

“Love is”“never having to say you sorry”.

Since those opening words of wisdom there came a thousand interpretations and sayings of the emotion of LOVE. I also remember agreeing with ALL those interpretations since they expressed a universal idea of what love is all about and I don’t remember any person disputing with those interpretations, UNTIL NOW.

Since I started posting my opinions on some blogs as to why many aspects of religion is IMMORAL, I have frequently come across Christians, who instead of addressing the issue at hand will simply state that Jesus loves me or Jesus loves.

Maybe I am wrong or I may have a misunderstanding, but exactly what is meant by Jesus Loves or Jesus loves me. I mean I understood all the sayings of Love and not once did I come across a saying called

Love is”“”” Jesus                                 OR

Love is “”“"Jesus saves you.

Now please correct me if I am wrong but I think all humans understand the concept of love. We know how a father or mother expresses love to their children, we know how lovers express love amongst themselves, and we know even how animals display the affections of love but I fail to understand the concept of Jesus Loves or the concept of Christian love.

Could some Christian please explain to me what the characteristic of this love is and what is so special and unique about this love.

When I look at Christians generally I find that this so called love is no different from the love expressed by all human beings in general. That is when Christian parents love their children this love is the same as when for example a Buddhist mother might love her child or an atheist father might love his child. Or the fact that when a Christian lover amorously displays his or her love, it is no different in content than how two Hindu lovers may show their affection towards each other. So what is it that is so unique about this CHRISTIAN LOVE?

I admit I write this article with a certain amount of anger directed at those Christians who freely bandy this Christian Love to everyone they meet and engage with. I see it as a pretentious and hypocritical behavior trying to disguise their true feelings towards others. Often Christian Love comes across a some sort of charity that becomes very offensive if the recipient never asked for this charity in the first place.

In many of my writings I have made it known that I do not need the sanctimonious, condescending love of Christians nor of Jesus in order for me to be happy and live a fulfilled life. I often felt offended when Christians disregarded what I have written to state in their comments Jesus Loves or we will “pray for you”. Surely there is a level of simple manners that we can all agree to (even Christians).

Finally like my two articles previously giving indication of how Christians come across as SUPREMACIST. Stating that you love all of humanity and then condemning a seemingly innocent class of people to HELL simply because they do not subscribe to your belief system is not the kind of love that any person will find universally endearing.

I will conclude by adding a saying of what love is that should be universally acceptable to all human beings.

LOVE IS….... HAVING TO SAY THAT ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE EQUAL (immaterial of your religious or irreligious belief, gender, sexual orientation, race, culture).

Fayzal.

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Fayzal Mahamed,
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Posted: 30 June 2006 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Right, Fayzal. The purest form of love (and the hardest to achieve) is so-called “unconditional” love ... love without conditions.

This is also the “love of the Good” that Plato and Socrates spoke about ... the wish for the good end of each person regardless of anything else.

It is easy to describe but very hard to achieve. I am willing to believe that there are some Christians who take Jesus’s words to heart and try to achieve such love for humanity. But if so there are very few. And I must admit that it is hard for any human to achieve, myself very much included. In fact, it is very counter-biological. Genetically, I believe we are determined to “love” (that is, prefer and work to help) those who are in our “in group” or “kin group”. This also works to out-compete others in our own species who are in the “out group”, who we really don’t love.

So while we may cast aspersions on those majority of Christians who do not love in such a pure way, the problem is quite general ...

:wink:

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Posted: 30 June 2006 11:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Hi Doug,

You quoted

[quote author=“dougsmith”] The purest form of love (and the hardest to achieve) is so-called “unconditional” love ... love without conditions.

I am willing to believe that there are some Christians who take Jesus’s words to heart and try to achieve such love for humanity. But if so there are very few. And I must admit that it is hard for any human to achieve, myself very much included. In fact, it is very counter-biological. Genetically, I believe we are determined to “love” (that is, prefer and work to help) those who are in our “in group” or “kin group”. This also works to out-compete others in our own species who are in the “out group”, who we really don’t love.

So while we may cast aspersions on those majority of Christians who do not love in such a pure way, the problem is quite general ...

:wink:

The purpose of my article (originally published on a local blog in South Africa) is to try and show that “Christian Love” is just a misrepresentation of the love that all humans know and have come to accept. That is there is nothing special about so called Christian love.

If Jesus practiced this unconditional love that Doug has quoted than I think that this love is no different than the love that all humanist express and that is our love and care for humanity.

However there would be a difference between “unconditional love” as we know it and the love that is determined by our biological process since this love is not unconditional. This love is determined by our kin group and also that this love would be directed to those that we perceive that does good according to our personal criteria of goodness. It simply means that I do not have to have any love for a rapist, murderer etc.

The point I am trying to make is that there is a difference or a contradiction between unconditional love and biological love. Even Jesus expressed the biological love because Jesus certainly did not love a gay person or an othodox Jew.

Personally I think there is no such thing as “unconditional love” as defined by Doug. As humans we must fall in the category of biological love which means we will express a hate or a disgust towards certain human beings.

Fayzal

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Posted: 01 July 2006 03:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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You raise some interesting questions, Fayzal.

First is the question of whether there is any such thing as “Christian love” that is separate from or better than the love non-Christians may feel towards one another. I would also agree there is nothing special about so-called “Christian love”. Either it is (at its best) a sort of unconditional love which is extremely hard to achieve for anyone, or it is just love towards other Christians in which case it really isn’t laudable at all.

Second is the question of the distinction between what you call “biological love” and unconditional love. I do not think that our abilities, beliefs, etc., are so simply conditioned by biology. After all, biologically speaking, we are baby-machines. We “ought” to want more children at nearly any cost. But we also have biologically produced brains that allow us to decide against having children in certain circumstances ...

So our intellect (which is also biologically constructed) can under certain circumstances allow us to overcome more basic biological urges.

It may also allow some of us under some circumstances to have unconditional love for others. But I expect this will always be difficult. Just as most people will always want to have children, most people will also want to practice “biological love”.

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Posted: 02 July 2006 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Howdy Mfmahamed

The words “Christian love” doesn’t appear to be anywhere in the Bible or in any of the Christian prayer or song books. If you are refering to the love of Christ towards all then allow me to elaborate.

The misled will naturally look at the life of Jesus and base a belief system on his supernatural existence.
The enlightened will read and accept his philosophy and base a lifestyle on the meaning of his message;
“Love yourself, love one another”,
“We are all sons and daughters in the eyes of the Universal Father”,
“God truly loves you”.
The Jesus message was not about his likes or dislikes, It is about the love of God the Father for all of us.

Peace.

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Posted: 02 July 2006 07:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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The Love of God

Hi CoyoteSon,

You quoted

[quote author=“CoyoteSon”]The Jesus message was not about his likes or dislikes, It is about the love of God the Father for all of us.

Thanks for this little bit of enlightenment.

I do understand this concept of “Love of a Universal God”. This love as I understand it is not restrained by any religious belief, that is this LOVE is not subjected to a belief system in order to obtain this LOVE.

Nor, as I understand it, does this “Universal Love of God” subject a person to HELL if a person does not follow a particular religion.

It follows that this LOVE promised by God is not an exclusively Christian thing. In fact being a Christian goes against the grain of God’s LOVE since the dogma of Christianity is that if any person does not accept Jesus as the saviour he or she will be going to HELL.

And should not the Universal LOVE of God cut across all racial lines, gender, sexual preferences, etc. In fact MY CONSTITUTION (South Africa) reflects the Universal Love of God more than the Bible or any Christian could.

The point I am trying to get across is that if you truly believed in the message of Jesus of the UNIVERSAL LOVE OF GOD you would as you quoted ignore the likes and dislikes of Jesus. In reality you would have to ignore or transcend the Bible and be a humanist instead of a Christian.

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Posted: 03 July 2006 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Howdy Mfmahamed

You wrote; “It follows that this LOVE promised by God is not an exclusively Christian thing.”

Well done, I enjoyed reading your post.

Peace my brother.

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Posted: 05 July 2006 02:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Re: The Love of God

[quote author=“mfmahamed”]I do understand this concept of “Love of a Universal God”. This love as I understand it is not restrained by any religious belief, that is this LOVE is not subjected to a belief system in order to obtain this LOVE.

Some Christians admit this, but I’d have to say in my experience that most do not.  It comes down to the “inerrancy” of the Bible.  The Bible says that Love comes only from believing in Jesus, so that’s what they believe, darn it, and you can’t convince them otherwise.  You might say, “well, I’m an atheist but I’m just as capable of loving my fellow man as you Christians are”, and they’ll say, “No, you may think you are, but you’re not.”  Why?  Because their Bible defines it that way!

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Posted: 06 July 2006 11:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Re: The Love of God

Hi Advocatus

Did you ever wonder why Christians dont’ mind discussing the existence of God, soul, hereafter without getting hot under the collar. As long as the debate is at a philosophical or scientific level they dont’ mind even if they look foolish (consider creationism).

You quoted

[quote author=“advocatus”]  The Bible says that Love comes only from believing in Jesus, so that’s what they believe, darn it, and you can’t convince them otherwise.  You might say, “well, I’m an atheist but I’m just as capable of loving my fellow man as you Christians are”, and they’ll say, “No, you may think you are, but you’re not.”  Why?  Because their Bible defines it that way!

I am in complete agreement with your opinion, and from experience I have come to find that a sustained attack on this idea of love is the area that Christians are most vulnerable and get angry when you attack this concept of love.

Christians like to imagine that they have a unique concept of this love and when you start chipping away at this pretention you expose “the king without his clothes”. A sustained attack on the Christian love makes the Christian not “lovable” but simply a SUPREMACIST.

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Posted: 07 July 2006 03:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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You may have something there.  I sometimes spend time in a Christian forum, and it is just as you say.  They’ll discuss evolution or the Big Bang or any philosophical argument about whether God exists or not until the cows come home, but when I join their threads that discuss morality, it is not too long before people are dropping out of the discussion.  Some have actually gone to the forum Administrator to try and get me kicked off the forum!

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Posted: 07 July 2006 06:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Advocatus wrote;

The Bible says that Love comes only from believing in Jesus

Could you be more specific and cite the book, chapter and verse.

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Posted: 10 July 2006 04:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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[quote author=“CoyoteSon”]Advocatus wrote;

The Bible says that Love comes only from believing in Jesus

Could you be more specific and cite the book, chapter and verse.

‘Fraid not.  I’m not a Bible scholar.  All I know is what Christians tell me.  But as mfmahamed says, it’s one thing that really gets them thinking.  Some will stalk off the forum, grumbling that an “atheist shouldn’t be allowed to stir up trouble like this”.  But I have also had several Private Messages from people wanted to know more about Humanism.

Of course, there are still the die-hards who insist that “You can’t be as decent and moral as you claim, because the Bible SAYS you can’t.”  But these are the same people who say that I can’t REALLY be an atheist, because the Bible says that “there is no excuse for not believing in God”, so what are you going to do?

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Posted: 10 July 2006 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Hi Advocatus

You wrote;”

Of course, there are still the die-hards who insist that “You can’t be as decent and moral as you claim, because the Bible SAYS you can’t.”

I have had my share of encounters with religious fanatics also and many are law abiding friendly people, some are my relatives. And the same is true for Atheists. Religious beliefs for or against are always imbedded in jello and very difficult to build a foundation of facts upon. The Bible is not the source of fact or proof for extraordinary explanations or events. It is however a source of inspiration once one can get past the inconsistencies and horrible editing.

so what are you going to do?

What I have done is look to alternative sources and piece together what is true for me, it’s the best anyone can hope to accomplish. I have found The Urantia Book to be a great help in these matters of faith and inspiration. Please don’t be alarmed I’m not pushing the book only commenting on what is true for me.

For others science has become the answer for everything, and where there are no answers in science then the question never exisited and is made irrelevant. In my opinion it’s only when science combined with a sound theology that the world around us has true meaning and all the answers are revealed.

Good luck in your quest.

Peace.

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Posted: 10 July 2006 08:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Religious beliefs for or against are always imbedded in jello and very difficult to build a foundation of facts upon.

For or against… I would agree that religious beliefs are imbedded in something jello-like, but arguments against religion are not necessarily ephemeral or faith-based at all.  I must insist that science (as a practice) is not just another way of answering questions or one’s personal “truth,” it’s the best and only real way of “proving” knowledge about the universe to the best of our ability.  There’s nothing lacking from an outlook that is ONLY evidence based and not reliant on supernatural interference.

In my opinion it’s only when science combined with a sound theology that the world around us has true meaning and all the answers are revealed.

What is a “sound” theology?  You argue that yours simply “works for you” - couldn’t that be anything you wanted it to be?  Combining science with theology is necessarily contradictory and illogical, in my view.  You can’t combine reality with what you’d like to be real, you either accept one or the other.  I don’t see the sense in approaching life scientifically, and then adding little supernatural decorations, like science + heaven and hell + the world is 6000 years old.

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Posted: 10 July 2006 08:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Oh, and I wanted to add something about sources of inspiration and hope… Why not be inspired by things that we know are real - like nature, the planet, the universe, kind acts, happiness, the complexity and beauty of life, etc?  Why assert some sort of all-powerful theistic system in order to ascertain purpose and inspiration?  If what you’re seeking is spiritual “help,” I think one might be better served by searching among the material plane for guidance; finding rational explanations for things and coming to terms with facts seems to be more helpful than accepting lies which act as band-aids for serious questions.

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