1 of 5
1
the chiropractic debate
Posted: 15 April 2010 10:43 PM   [ Ignore ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1783
Joined  2008-08-09

Excuse me for starting a new thread though other threads deal with chiropractic.

But, I want to start fresh.

I’ve vaguely read about Chiropractors promising all sorts of cures up to, or just short of miracles.  OK that’s bunkum . . .

But, as for my own actual experiences: I’ve always found myself across from a person looking at my skeletal/muscular body with respect to whichever recent physical injury I’ve inflicted on myself.  Remember, my bread’n butter has always been earned off the sweat of my body, plus a few skills.  I’ve been spared serious illnesses, but physical stresses, strains and ouches I have known.

With a few stretches and tweaks I have consistently walked out of the Chiropractors office feeling better and that feeling has just as consistently lasted.  During my worst incident, a slightly compressed lower disk, the chiropractor sent we away, sans treatment, for a couple days of epson salt baths and a couple massages, because he appreciated that my muscles where so bound up and tight that any adjustments to my skeleton would have caused injuries.  After four days and my following his prescription, he worked me over, while explaining everything he was doing.  Ten years later I know I received astounding benefits from this particular Chiropractor.

One of, if not, the best medical experiences or doctors I ever had!  What a shame he moved to Sweden.

> > >  So I am always confused by the seeming hatred, or at least utter contempt shown chiropractors.

Can someone explain this?

(ps. my visits have been sporatic, perhaps averaging every 5+ years)

 Signature 

The Anthropogenic Global Warming Consensus is not formed by scientists !
The Anthropogenic Global Warming Consensus IS formed by the data being gathered !

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 04:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15305
Joined  2006-02-14
citizenschallenge - 15 April 2010 10:43 PM

> > >  So I am always confused by the seeming hatred, or at least utter contempt shown chiropractors.

Can someone explain this?

There’s a huge amount to say on this topic. For some background, read Quackwatch’s Chirobase (They have a whole site about Chiropractic), as well as Science Based Medicine’s pages on Chiropractic. There is also some good information on the Wiki page about Chiropractic.

The thumbnail picture: Chiropractic is a form of quackery started by someone who believed that all human disease was due to a misalignment of the spine. No, really. In this, it really isn’t so different from nonsense forms of universal medicine like Homeopathy.

Since the Chiropractic treatment typically involves back massage, it has been found to be effective against those sorts of illnesses which back massages can aid; most typically, lower back pain. However, an actual medical doctor like an osteopath can provide the same treatment from within a competent medical framework.

The problem is that Chiropractic is not without a potential for very serious harm: spinal manipulations that are done around the head and neck in particular have been shown to rupture blood vessels and nerves, and can even lead to stroke. (See e.g., HERE).

So since there is no plausibility to the whole Chiropractic paradigm, since all its benefits can be captured within a competent medical framework, and since it is capable of real harm, it is indeed a practice which should be held in contempt.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1064
Joined  2007-06-20

I am in compete agreement with dougsmith on what he says on this issue. 

I just wanted to add three things:  Placebo effect, back problems are often the type that improve over time regardless and the fact that besides the quacks themselves, their biggest cheerleaders are almost always their “patients.”

Go to a real medical doctor for treatment and a regular masseuse or massage therapist for massages.  You’ll be in better hands in both cases, save money in the long run and won’t be helping the spread of pseudoscience.

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 08:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2457
Joined  2008-06-03

For around the same cost of a 30-second “adjustment” at the chiropractor, I can spend an hour getting a pampering and relaxing massage, which always cures my back pain.  cheese

My back pain is muscle-tension related, however. I cannot speak for those with problems of the actual spine. But the articles I’ve read on Science Based Medicine and other sites suggest that Chiropractic is equal to massage therapy and physical therapy.

 Signature 

Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it’s a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.    - Lex Luthor

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 10:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5508
Joined  2006-10-22

I’ve noticed a fair number of “massage parlors” opening up around the city.  I’ll bet they’ve really cut into chiropractors’ incomes—especially since, as the newspaper reports seem to indicate, they also perform “other services” for an additional fee.  LOL

Occam

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2457
Joined  2008-06-03

Occam you are so silly! LOL

 Signature 

Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it’s a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.    - Lex Luthor

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 10:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1064
Joined  2007-06-20
Occam - 16 April 2010 10:09 AM

I’ve noticed a fair number of “massage parlors” opening up around the city.  I’ll bet they’ve really cut into chiropractors’ incomes—especially since, as the newspaper reports seem to indicate, they also perform “other services” for an additional fee.  LOL

Occam

Massage Parlor?  Chiropractor?  You get screwed either way!  wink

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 10:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2457
Joined  2008-06-03

Good one!  LOL

Too bad I do not visit a massage parlor. I visit a licensed massage therapist. My life would be a little more exciting if I switched the two.  wink

 Signature 

Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it’s a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.    - Lex Luthor

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 10:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1783
Joined  2008-08-09

massage is great. . . and I’ve had them very-semi regularly, and have experienced a whole range of talent (effectiveness) in that field too.  I’m lucky now in that I know a gal that can get deep down and is amazing at finding exactly the points causing trouble, even when not pointed out, far out shining 90% of the others and no doubt she’s done wonders for me when I’m particularly beat up. 

So no argument there.  Sorry with regular doctors I haven’t been as lucky, uppity and pill pushing - I’m sure a more competent physician would have impressed me better (now I’m talking about the specific incident a decade back, one moment I was reaching for my boots, the next had me flat on the floor, crawling to the bathroom and my bed the first days.  A handful of days of knowing what it was like to be a cripple - That was during my transition from restaurant manager to construction dude, at fortyish, coupled with an particularly heavy lifting intense job. - Good wake up call. Ergonomic balanced movement has been my mantra since, that and getting help help with extra heavy weights, though the practice of it is tougher than the believing in it.

I will read those links Doug sent, thank you.  You do make good points for sure.  But, still from a mechanical muscular/skeletal perspective it makes sense to me, and placebo doesn’t do it justice - they do get in there and manipulate, you can feel it.  But, that’s what makes the above talk of damages done something I can buy and will certainly read about… know thy physician… eh

As for anecdotal, well all I got is me and my body - a unique combination at that - so my personal anecdotes are real and significant for me and how I practice my life.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Oh a slight digression.
I just heard an insightful comment in talk about medicine and the doctor client relations, that reminded me of a threat here a while back.

“One thing that must be appreciated is that in the examination room there are two experts. 
The doctor is the medical expert, and the patient is the expert on himself. 
For there to be successful outcomes those two experts need to develop a level of understanding and respectful rapport.”

 Signature 

The Anthropogenic Global Warming Consensus is not formed by scientists !
The Anthropogenic Global Warming Consensus IS formed by the data being gathered !

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1783
Joined  2008-08-09

ps.  On my back trauma incident.
It was the Chiropractor* who explained what was going on with my back.
And, explained it in such an illustrative way, along with pointing out how to deal with it,
that in turn helped me become healthier in my early/mid fifities than I was in my early forties.

But then, this was a very talented insightful guy, who had a love for sharing knowledge (he was a good listener too) and could do so as well as anyone I’ve know.  Another, example of my habit of meeting and befriending extra special people only to have them disappear on me, fortunately this one just followed his wife back to Sweden. wink

 Signature 

The Anthropogenic Global Warming Consensus is not formed by scientists !
The Anthropogenic Global Warming Consensus IS formed by the data being gathered !

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1064
Joined  2007-06-20
citizenschallenge - 16 April 2010 11:03 AM

ps.  On my back trauma incident.
...(he was a good listener too)...

Bingo!  I’d say there is the reason you liked chiropractor over real doctors. 

Sometimes real medical doctors can be too caught up in the actual science behind what is causing a problem and how to best deal with it.  Since quacks aren’t limited by such technicalities as the truth and science, they can concentrate on telling their “patients” what they want to hear.  Bedside manner is something that many physicians need to improve upon.  I’ve seem to recall studies where patients rate that higher than almost anything else.  Might be in an old Skeptical Inquirer or on one of Penn & Teller’s Bullshit episodes.

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2457
Joined  2008-06-03

I’ve found most of my doctors to be caring, kind and lovely. I’ve only come across a couple in my lifetime that were short with me, or dismissive.

 Signature 

Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it’s a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.    - Lex Luthor

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 April 2010 01:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  258
Joined  2010-02-28

I’d suggest a revisit of the Simon Sign affair, in which the British Chiropractic Association sued Sigh for defamation.

The issue with this example of CAM is the same for others. No large scale study has shown it to be an effective form of treatment.

Anecdotal or personal experience is not the measure of efficacy.

There are many people who will attest to the effectiveness of homeopathy, but it is well studied and found to be ineffective.

Ditto chiropractic treatment.

Where the practitioners of this science excel is as counsellors.

The typical doctors visit is 15 minutes. For a CAM practitioner it is an hour. In that time you will have more chance to talk. Mostly, what they offer is good advice:

“Eat well, do a bit of exercise and look after yourself. Oh, and here is the magic pills for the placebo effect.”

A friend of mine went to kinesiologist and said she was amazing, cured all her problems. She then described the *conversations* she’d been having with her. It was that those talks that helped her, not the WOO.

 Signature 

http://watchingthedeniers.wordpress.com/

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 April 2010 02:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7641
Joined  2008-04-11

There IS no debate about chiropractic.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 April 2010 01:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1783
Joined  2008-08-09
Rocinante - 16 April 2010 12:07 PM
citizenschallenge - 16 April 2010 11:03 AM

ps.  On my back trauma incident.
...(he was a good listener too)...

Bingo!  I’d say there is the reason you liked chiropractor over real doctors. 

Sometimes real medical doctors can be too caught up in the actual science behind what is causing a problem and how to best deal with it.  Since quacks aren’t limited by such technicalities as the truth and science, they can concentrate on telling their “patients” what they want to hear.

Hmmm.  I’m not looking for an argument, and in honesty I probably shouldn’t even post another comment until after I read those links Doug sent, but this is one of those especially busy weekends for me, so I probably won’t do that till Sunday evening. 

However, “telling you what you want to hear” raises my hackles in that discussing, or rather educating, about the spinal column and it’s junction points of nerves and muscles along with details about our ‘discs’, and the location of my slightly compressed disk (in later years verified by an X-ray), doesn’t fall under calculated “soothing”.  Beyond that being taught stretching exercises that have proven successful, doesn’t fall under the heading of bs in my book.  Beyond that I’ve been learning from an early age to sniff out bs’ers vs those who actually possess worthwhile knowledge - of course I make mistakes, but I’m not a blind sheepeople either.

These blanket black/white (totalitarian even) replies doesn’t work either, especially considering some of the monstrosities of modern medicine in its zeal to over treatment, and fancy new operations, that in hindsight have turned out to create more damage than healing, (just recently i recall a report calling into question a certain back operation, though I don’t have the time to dig up the specifics.) ought to instill at least a little humility, instead AMA and such think they should be taken as god and all the rest are demons.

You say a “real” doctor is the way to go, but he just offered me muscle relaxers and back surgery options.  But, I found a guy who says wait a minute, look at what is going on in your body physiologically, look at ergonomic changes you can make in tackling heavy labor jobs, add to that teaching various stretching exercises to help relieve that tension that builds up if ignored - seems to me the pinnacle of a healer.

ps. a shill would have tried talking me into a long term treatment regiment, this guy wanted to (& did) fix me up and show me how to forestall future traumas, and send me on my way.  Given that a decade has elapsed…. i still gotta give him some brownie points grin  anecdotal or not

 Signature 

The Anthropogenic Global Warming Consensus is not formed by scientists !
The Anthropogenic Global Warming Consensus IS formed by the data being gathered !

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 April 2010 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7641
Joined  2008-04-11

What you got was Physical therapy. Chiropractics can be competent physical therapists, IF they stick to that. The problem is that most of them do not.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 5
1