asanta - 17 April 2010 02:32 PM

What you got was Physical therapy.

now we’re on the same page, thank you.
but i gotta run, spent way too much time on that other new threat as it is. ps i will read those links

gotta run…..

Tough responsibilities tonight and tomorrow morning.  I’m working the ‘green room’ at the Strater Hotel.
It’s Durango Bluegrass Meltdown weekend

gonna have a chance to do a little more backbone therapy

asanta - 17 April 2010 02:32 PM

What you got was Physical therapy. Chiropractics can be competent physical therapists, IF they stick to that. The problem is that most of them do not.

Yes, many chiropractors start claiming they can cure infections, cancer, HIV, etc. Some don’t believe in germ theory, they claim all disease is caused by spinal problems!

Jules - 17 April 2010 04:21 PM

asanta - 17 April 2010 02:32 PM

What you got was Physical therapy. Chiropractics can be competent physical therapists, IF they stick to that. The problem is that most of them do not.

Yes, many chiropractors start claiming they can cure infections, cancer, HIV, etc. Some don’t believe in germ theory, they claim all disease is caused by spinal problems!

There are a few who will stick to the bounds of physical therapy. The trick is to be able to identify them. I would hope that these do not do ‘neck manipulations’ either. Personally, I would stick with the more science based field of Physical Therapy. I know what their credentials are, and the scope of their training, and they are unlikely to go off chasing the ‘spinal trap woo’. I’ll stick to physical therapy.

The massage therapist I’m seeing, is also a student getting her degree in physical therapy. It makes for an amazing back-rub.

She said massage therapy school, which she attended several years ago, was only two years in length. She wants to learn more about the body.

Jules - 17 April 2010 04:21 PM

asanta - 17 April 2010 02:32 PM

What you got was Physical therapy. Chiropractics can be competent physical therapists, IF they stick to that. The problem is that most of them do not.

Yes, many chiropractors start claiming they can cure infections, cancer, HIV, etc. Some don’t believe in germ theory, they claim all disease is caused by spinal problems!

Which is the real issue - the whole discipline was founded on their take on “subluxations”:

In 2009, four scholarly chiropractors concluded that epidemiologic evidence does not support chiropractic’s most fundamental theory. Since its inception, the vast majority of chiropractors have postulated that “subluxations” (misalignments) are the cause or underlying cause of ill health and can be corrected with spinal “adjustments.” After searching the scientific literature, the chiropractic authors concluded:

“No supportive evidence is found for the chiropractic subluxation being associated with any disease process or of creating suboptimal health conditions requiring intervention. Regardless of popular appeal, this leaves the subluxation construct in the realm of unsupported speculation. This lack of supportive evidence suggests the subluxation construct has no valid clinical applicability.”

From the Chiro’s themselves.

It’s premise is unfounded, it’s a coincidence that they provide physical therapy.

They should ditch the “chiropractic” label, call themselves physical therapists and be done with it. Sure, they might lose the coveted “Dr” title.

CC, I know you support an evidence/reason based world view. Have a look, let us know what you think.

Cheers mate.

dougsmith - 16 April 2010 04:23 AM

The problem is that Chiropractic is not without a potential for very serious harm: spinal manipulations that are done around the head and neck in particular have been shown to rupture blood vessels and nerves, and can even lead to stroke. (See e.g., Neck Manipulation: Risk vs. Benefit).

So since there is no plausibility to the whole Chiropractic paradigm, since all its benefits can be captured within a competent medical framework, and since it is capable of real harm, it is indeed a practice which should be held in contempt.

Doug, I’ve read through your links and have enjoyed and learned a bit from all of them. But, you’re above words force me to start with a devil’s advocate lob.

Your link “Neck Manipulation: Risk vs. Benefit” doesn’t live up to its dire introduction.  I even looked up abstracts for #5,6,7 and nothing in their measured tones…. how do I put this? . . .  Your tone makes it sound like there is a “clear and present” chance of getting your neck damaged next time one visits the Chiropractor.  Yes, the concerns are real, and I too despise the notion of getting my neck “crack’ed” though I’ve submitted to it a few times… But, if there were actually a bunch of grievous injuries directly tied Chiropractic treatment I would think the evidence would be a bit more unequivocal.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I also think falling into the trap of generalization: in that, if instead of using “the whole Chiropractic paradigm” you had been more nuanced and pointed out the folly of the “Subluxation Premise” I’d have less to pick on. 

asanta - 17 April 2010 07:15 PM

Jules - 17 April 2010 04:21 PM

asanta - 17 April 2010 02:32 PM

What you got was Physical therapy. Chiropractics can be competent physical therapists, IF they stick to that. The problem is that most of them do not.

Yes, many chiropractors start claiming they can cure infections, cancer, HIV, etc. Some don’t believe in germ theory, they claim all disease is caused by spinal problems!

There are a few who will stick to the bounds of physical therapy. The trick is to be able to identify them.

After my last post of a few days ago I started recalling a couple Chiropractors who did turn me off from the start, and whom I definitely never revisited.  Also, I’ve always avoided the heavy advertisers and such, and I do have a critical eye towards all people I interact with.  So I have been discriminating.

asanta - 17 April 2010 07:15 PM

I would hope that these do not do ‘neck manipulations’ either. Personally, I would stick with the more science based field of Physical Therapy. I know what their credentials are, and the scope of their training, and they are unlikely to go off chasing the ‘spinal trap woo’. I’ll stick to physical therapy.

I could agree with this, expect chiropractors seem more accessible than “physical therapist”. . .  but that’s an experience, education issue.

citizenschallenge - 19 April 2010 02:08 PM

But, if there were actually a bunch of grievous injuries directly tied Chiropractic treatment I would think the evidence would be a bit more unequivocal.

Chiropractic: The Victims Perspective by George Magner

SELF Magazine, May 2007: A Deadly Twist: Chiropractors Are Causing Strokes In Young Healthy Woman

At Your Own Risk: The Case Against Chiropractic by Ralph Lee Smith

Victims of Chiropractic Abuse

Victims of Irresponsible Chiropractic Education & Standards

Victims of Chiropractic

Chiropractic Stroke Awareness Group

Chirproactic Injury Website

Action for Victims of Chiropractic

Well OK Rocinante,
After Doug softening me up, that was a pretty good tour de force.  No I didn’t read all of it, but I did skim through most of it, and did read large excerpts - Ralph Lee Smith’s articles seemed the most interesting if a bit dated.

I tell you guys I’m glad I’m here trying to learn about the Chiropractic controversy rather than boldly advocating its wonders.  I think I’d have to tippy toe away, even given my overall positive experiences.

Perhaps, I’ll even have to try and find out a little more about those elusive ‘physical therapists’ I hear about.  How many different bodies credential them?  What various standards do they practice by?

citizenschallenge - 19 April 2010 03:11 PM

Well OK Rocinante,
After Doug softening me up, that was a pretty good tour de force.  No I didn’t read all of it, but I did skim through most of it, and did read large excerpts - Ralph Lee Smith’s articles seemed the most interesting if a bit dated.

I tell you guys I’m glad I’m here trying to learn about the Chiropractic controversy rather than boldly advocating its wonders.  I think I’d have to tippy toe away, even given my overall positive experiences.

Perhaps, I’ll even have to try and find out a little more about those elusive ‘physical therapists’ I hear about.  How many different bodies credential them?  What various standards do they practice by?

Bravo mate.

The approach is to keep investigating with a critical eye. That’s how I lost my religion during my teens. Plenty of religious people I know are kind, generous and giving to a fault. As such they act as wonderful advertisements.

However, it does not make the claims of religion true.

Physical therapy programs vary by masters or doctorate degrees. The programs are accredited by the American Physical Therapy Association, and they are licensed by the state. There is also a Bachelor’s degree program through doctorate in Chiropractic, but a doctorate in B*** S*** is still B*** S***. The only advantage I can see, of going to a Chiropractor (who practices within the parameters of Physical Therapy), is that I have to get a referral from my primary physician to see a Physical Therapist, but I can see a Chiropractor on my own.

asanta - 19 April 2010 09:23 PM

The only advantage I can see, of going to a Chiropractor (who practices within the parameters of Physical Therapy), is that I have to get a referral from my primary physician to see a Physical Therapist, but I can see a Chiropractor on my own.

Which is quite probably why I’m so ignorant of that field.  To me a physical therapist is the person one sees after big bang ups and hospital stays, something I’ve done my best to avoid… successfully so far.

And you know if I need to see physician just to tell me I strained my back, then get a referral for a Physical Therapist, I’ll probably be back at the Chiropractor I used a couple years next time I’m in need, though I wish the fellow from a decade ago were back in town.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
ps.  I’m on the pay my own way medical plan, so $$ does make a difference.
The insurance policy I have is the assurance that once I start going down hill for real, make peace with the life I had and get ready to say good bye. Because its going to be medicine deprived downhill ripper.  This is where being a fatalist and pessimist comes in handy - I already experienced more than I deserved, every day is a new gift.
a mini-motto - “Today is the best day of the rest of your life so enjoy it to its fullest.”

Well I’ve been a chiropractor for about 10 years and can tell you for sure that ‘being a good listener’ is not going to solve problems for a person who is in acute pain.  I’d have been out of business long ago if that were my only tool!

Also- doncha hate it when the quacks outperform the real physicians?

here’s a precis on two articles that may explain why the person who started this thread was less than thrilled when they presented their back pain to their physician.
These studies were published in Bone and Joint Surgery-  a periodical for orthopedic surgeons.

In 1998, two medical doctors at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine in Philadelphia, contacted all 157 chairpersons of orthopedic residency programs in the United States. Together they developed and validated a basic-competency examination in musculoskeletal medicine to give to the first year residents. The results were astounding, because 82% of the eighty-five medical school graduates failed this BASIC competency exam!

Four years later they redesigned the exam and again gave it to all the residents. Even though the passing grade was LOWERED from 74% to 70% (plus or minus 9.9 percent), 78% of them again failed the exam, with a mean test score average of 59.9 percent!

To add insult to injury, this exact test was given to a group of 51 chiropractic students during their last semester of schooling. The results? 70% of the students passed the test. This is in contrast to an 80% failure rate for the MDs.

For clarity sake, you need appreciate the difference between the chiropractic and the medical participants in these studies.

  * The chiropractic group were still JUST STUDENTS

  * The medical group had already graduated medical school, been awarded their MD degrees, completed all their hospital rotations, and finally been accepted into highly competitive orthopedic residencies.

One would expect that, during their 5 years of medical training, followed by endless hours of hospital rotations and residency programs, that all these doctors *might have* picked up a little more musculoskeletal knowledge along the way. Evidently this is NOT the case.

These medical authors concluded that residents in orthopedic surgery programs are not provided with sufficient training in NMS analysis. The truth is, they are incompetent in musculoskeletal assessment or treatment. This situation was not corrected during the 4-year interim between the publication of the 1st and 2nd article, and likely has not been corrected 11 years later.

Since that time there has been a storm brewing at medical schools, but in the 11 years since Dr. Freedman published his first paper, medical students still continue to fail on basic musculoskeletal exams, as documented by the following series of peer-reviewed studies. This is a huge problem because “conditions affecting the musculoskeletal system are the primary reason patients seek medical care from physicians, accounting for nearly 100 million office visits per year. [1] Musculoskeletal conditions are the most common cause of long-term pain and physical disability. [2]” [3]

What’s the solution? If you have spinal pain, seek care from someone who is properly trained to assess and manage your care. That person is a chiropractor.

The following articles are listed from the oldest to the newest, so that you can follow the lack of progress in correcting this issue at medical schools.

The Adequacy of Medical School Education in Musculoskeletal Medicine
Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery 1998 (Oct);  80-A (10):  1421–1427
This is the original article, which found that 82 per cent of medical school graduates failed a valid musculoskeletal competency examination. They concluded that “we therefore believe that medical school preparation in musculoskeletal medicine is inadequate” and that medical students were inadequately trained to diagnose and treat musculoskeletal complaints.

http://www.pinellaslife.com/pdf/Chiro-Article.pdf

also interesting.  5 things you don’t know about chiropractors- guaranteed to be the case in this forum!

Felix - 21 April 2010 09:25 PM

http://www.pinellaslife.com/pdf/Chiro-Article.pdf

also interesting.  5 things you don’t know about chiropractors- guaranteed to be the case in this forum!

Well ok there’s some decent counter weight.
Thanks for your insights, it will be interesting seeing where this thread goes.

On the Chiropractic issue I am an agnostic, while I can agree with many of the “contra-indicators” pointed out in previous posts - I’m back at my original outlook ++

While I am for sure impressed, sobered even*, with some of links Doug and Rocinante shared - I also appreciate that there are doctors in every field that have inflicted grievous damage out of accident, incompetence, or simply missing pieces of information.

I think what the “serious” AMA types don’t yet appreciate is that what they consider feely, mealy, listening, talking head-feeding ‘nonsense’ - is often, when done correctly an examination of the holistic situation which ough be considered essential. 

I believe honest successful medicine cannot be achieved by compartmentalizing, such as believing that fixing the inside chemistry is all there is to healing the person and setting him/her off on a more health wise successful life.

Once again, thank you Felix for weighing in with your thoughtful and authoritative opinion.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
* and I will definitely become a little more acquainted with the specific certifications and what they actually stand for so far as teaching philosophy.  I’ve been given more tools for interacting with my chosen care giver of that moment.