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the chiropractic debate
Posted: 22 April 2010 04:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Felix - 21 April 2010 09:25 PM

http://www.pinellaslife.com/pdf/Chiro-Article.pdf

also interesting.  5 things you don’t know about chiropractors- guaranteed to be the case in this forum!

Misleading puff-piece. Reads as though it was written by a marketing firm.

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Posted: 22 April 2010 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Felix - 21 April 2010 09:18 PM

What’s the solution? If you have spinal pain, seek care from someone who is properly trained to assess and manage your care. That person is a chiropractor.
The following articles are listed from the oldest to the newest, so that you can follow the lack of progress in correcting this issue at medical schools.


The Adequacy of Medical School Education in Musculoskeletal Medicine
Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery 1998 (Oct);  80-A (10):  1421–1427
This is the original article, which found that 82 per cent of medical school graduates failed a valid musculoskeletal competency examination. They concluded that “we therefore believe that medical school preparation in musculoskeletal medicine is inadequate” and that medical students were inadequately trained to diagnose and treat musculoskeletal complaints.

Felix, you are making a disingenouos argument, comparing apples to oranges, and saying they are the same thing. A doctor would be hard put to pass the Nursing boards too, that doesn’t make him incompetent, it makes him/her a doctor and NOT a nurse. Now if you showed me a muscle-skeletal specialist (btw, in the medical field, they are called ORTHOPAEDIC SURGEONS, and they do not ONLY do surgery.), or PHYSICAL THERAPIST who could not pass a chiropractic musculo-skeletal examination, we would have something to talk about. Medical doctors refer people with these problems for a reason, AFTER they have ruled out medical causes.

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Posted: 22 April 2010 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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dougsmith - 22 April 2010 04:03 AM
Felix - 21 April 2010 09:25 PM

http://www.pinellaslife.com/pdf/Chiro-Article.pdf

also interesting.  5 things you don’t know about chiropractors- guaranteed to be the case in this forum!

Misleading puff-piece. Reads as though it was written by a marketing firm.

I couldn’t necessarily disagree, but Felix’s previous self-written post did impress me.
Oh, yup asanta you make another good point worth weighting.
ps.  I hope we hear a little more from Felix, this is getting interesting.

[ Edited: 22 April 2010 09:03 AM by citizenschallenge ]
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Posted: 22 April 2010 09:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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citizenschallenge - 22 April 2010 09:01 AM

I couldn’t necessarily disagree, but Felix’s previous self-written post did impress me.

Why?

First of all, it’s completely irrelevant to the basic point, which is that chiropractic is quackery.

Secondly, the study he cites is garbage, and he completely misrepresents it. HERE is a more relevant take from Chirobase:

The ACA also argued that there was “clear evidence” of a “competency gap” between medical doctors and chiropractors based on a single test of a single University Medical Centers’ interns on their first day, ignoring that most of them were probably not licensed or even done with licensure tests—much less internship, residency, and board certification. [Freedman KB, and others. The adequacy of medical school education in musculoskeletal medicine. Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery 80-A:1421-1427, 1998] Moreover, the test was not administered to chiropractors.

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Posted: 22 April 2010 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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dougsmith - 22 April 2010 09:11 AM
citizenschallenge - 22 April 2010 09:01 AM

I couldn’t necessarily disagree, but Felix’s previous self-written post did impress me.

Why?

First of all, it’s completely irrelevant to the basic point, which is that chiropractic is quackery.

Secondly, the study he cites is garbage, and he completely misrepresents it. HERE is a more relevant take from Chirobase:

The ACA also argued that there was “clear evidence” of a “competency gap” between medical doctors and chiropractors based on a single test of a single University Medical Centers’ interns on their first day, ignoring that most of them were probably not licensed or even done with licensure tests—much less internship, residency, and board certification. [Freedman KB, and others. The adequacy of medical school education in musculoskeletal medicine. Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery 80-A:1421-1427, 1998] Moreover, the test was not administered to chiropractors.

..or in that case, comparing apples to sheep! What a useless study!!

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Posted: 22 April 2010 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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asanta - 22 April 2010 09:13 AM
dougsmith - 22 April 2010 09:11 AM
citizenschallenge - 22 April 2010 09:01 AM

I couldn’t necessarily disagree, but Felix’s previous self-written post did impress me.

Why?
First of all, it’s completely irrelevant to the basic point, which is that chiropractic is quackery.
Secondly, the study he cites is garbage, and he completely misrepresents it. HERE is a more relevant take from Chirobase:

The ACA also argued that there was “clear evidence” of a “competency gap” between medical doctors and chiropractors based on a single test of a single University Medical Centers’ interns on their first day, ignoring that most of them were probably not licensed or even done with licensure tests—much less internship, residency, and board certification. [Freedman KB, and others. The adequacy of medical school education in musculoskeletal medicine. Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery 80-A:1421-1427, 1998] Moreover, the test was not administered to chiropractors.

..or in that case, comparing apples to sheep! What a useless study!!

did you mean sheepeoples   hmmm

Felix the ball is in your court.

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Posted: 22 April 2010 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Felix - 21 April 2010 09:25 PM

http://www.pinellaslife.com/pdf/Chiro-Article.pdf

also interesting.  5 things you don’t know about chiropractors- guaranteed to be the case in this forum!

Rarely have I seen such a collection of refutable BS shoveled onto one page. I tried to cut and paste so I could begin to refute, but the I couldn’t. YES, neck manipulations have been associated with strokes, NO the training received by chiropractors are in NO WAY comparable to that received by MDs. As for insurance, YOU do not have to deliver babies, care for intubated patients who are septic and on pressors. NOR do you have to figure out whether a patient is dying of an esoteric autoimmune disease vs a multi-organ system failure precipitated by some organism. YOU do not have to decide whether the symptoms are of a gram negative organism vs a gram positive organism and decide what antibiotic will better treat it before the blood culture comes back. YOU do not have to order dialysis, an LVAD or CVVHD to keep YOUR patient alive until an organ to transplant is available. YOU have a poor argument. Try. Again…. hmmm  mad

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Posted: 22 April 2010 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Well, it’s telling that Felix hasn’t posted again.
So what impression am I left with?

An almost angry question, yet done with all due respect and love grin

Why is it that main stream medicine has done such a lousy job of being where the people need them, when they need them?

Bitch all you want about Chiropractors, but their the ones out there with doors open.  What does Mr. AMA offer me?  Hoops to jump through, plus the added indignity of inflicting stratospheric expenses for every hoop and fart along the way!

If I’m physically in trouble I can find any number of Chiropractors with their doors open.  Easy in, easy out, some have tried to sell me long treatment plans, but its easy to make clear that is not an option. 
Keeping this within the framework of the skeletal/muscular physical therapy arena. 

Don’t get me wrong - I do understand and appreciate that dark side that justifiably outrages some you folks.  And yes the various studies D & A shared held more validity than those 5 points.  But, you also have to understand that stuff isn’t my battle.

I would love to turn to a fully trained real physical therapists.  But, they aren’t there.  At least not for the likes of me.

So that’s what I’m left thinking about - The dismal record of what the AMA driven profitsüberalles medical care system has achieved for its nation.  {Oh I forgot it was for themselves and profits.}  I’m reminded of a repeating closing lyric some good friends used in a song: “And where did we all go wrong?”

Now don’t get me wrong on this one either - I truly appreciate and applaud the many fine advances.  And medical personal are among the finest I know, but in many respects our health care system is nearly as dismal as our schools are said to be.

[ Edited: 22 April 2010 07:25 PM by citizenschallenge ]
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Posted: 22 April 2010 07:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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I hear you, although I’ve never personally had any problems with my doctors.

One quibble: “profitsüberalles” is just as much a problem with Alt Med in general, and chiropractic in particular, as it is of scientific medicine. They all have to make a living. The difference is that it is extremely expensive to go to medical school, so anyone who leaves with an MD, particularly one from a top university, may have a six-figure debt that they will need to repay. It’s hard to do that with a low cost practice. OTOH one doesn’t need any sort of degree at all to be a quack. (Though I suppose to have a chiropractic certificate some training is necessary, I don’t know the specifics, and am sure it isn’t anywhere near as expensive as going to a good med school).

One can complain about the system, but it often isn’t the doctors themselves who are to blame.

Remember: alt med is a multi billion dollar industry. It’s simply not the case that alt med purveyors don’t care about profits. Indeed, profits are literally all they care about, since they don’t actually provide medical treatment. It’s basically institutionalized theft.

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Posted: 22 April 2010 07:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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citizenschallenge - 22 April 2010 07:16 PM

If I’m physically in trouble I can find any number of Chiropractors with their doors open.

And if you are mentally troubled the door of the psychics are also always open. And if it is Eros who causing pain in your heart there are the always-open doors of the strip joint.

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Posted: 22 April 2010 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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George - 22 April 2010 07:25 PM

And if it is Eros who causing pain in your heart there are the always-open doors of the strip joint.

LOL

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Posted: 22 April 2010 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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George - 22 April 2010 07:25 PM
citizenschallenge - 22 April 2010 07:16 PM

If I’m physically in trouble I can find any number of Chiropractors with their doors open.

buyer beware
a fool is born every second
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

George - 22 April 2010 07:25 PM

And if your mentally troubled the door of the psychics are also always open.

Couldn’t be much worse than some of the damage I’ve seen inflicted by “certified,” “accredited”  “mental health professionals!”  You touched on a raw nerve there, the “mental” health sector is the most voodoo part of medicine there is.  In my own estimation probably the lowest of the medical branches because too many practitioners are still way too wrapped in their own trips and too busy transferring that crap into everything they see - to be capable of impartially accessing or “treating” troubled people.  I’ve seen sanctioned damage done time and again. 

So Yea, an empathic, world wise old psychic probably could do more good in more cases than a few of the “sanctioned” yaahow’s I’ve known.  angry

George - 22 April 2010 07:25 PM

And if it is Eros who causing pain in your heart there are the always-open doors of the strip joint.

Well, another interesting example.  Being from the southwest, and in fact my first Colorado home was a Silverton bordello back in the day, it’s part of our awareness.  To be honest, I truly believe our society would be a whole bunch saner and less violent if legitimate bordello’s never went out of fashion!

But, then I think we’d have stayed a whole bunch saner, if we hadn’t reproduced like drunken rabbits.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
But, seriously folks cheese
The point I was trying to make was that the system is too inaccessible,
and it has itself to blame for some of the “alternative stuff”

Seems to me with a slightly more altruistic business plan, the AMA types could have absorbed the sober Chiropractor types, into a system that worked for all, eliminating that darker industry sector in the process.  But we compartmentalize everything so such stuff dreams are considered nonsense.

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Posted: 22 April 2010 08:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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dougsmith - 22 April 2010 07:25 PM

One quibble: “profitsüberalles” is just as much a problem with Alt Med in general, and chiropractic in particular, as it is of scientific medicine.

They all have to make a living.

The difference is that it is extremely expensive to go to medical school

One can complain about the system, but it often isn’t the doctors themselves who are to blame.

Remember: alt med is a multi billion dollar industry. It’s simply not the case that alt med purveyors don’t care about profits. Indeed, profits are literally all they care about, since they don’t actually provide medical treatment. It’s basically institutionalized theft.

No doubt, I agree.
That’s why when it comes down to it I have zero faith in the future of this system we have created.

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Posted: 22 April 2010 08:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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George - 22 April 2010 07:25 PM

And if you are mentally troubled the door of the psychics are also always open. And if it is Eros who causing pain in your heart there are the always-open doors of the strip joint.

George, I was going to add my nickel, but I can’t come close to topping that! LOL

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Posted: 22 April 2010 09:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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this discussion is just too wide ranging to devote a ton of time to.  With respect to the original question- “I have seen a chiropractor and the results impressed me more than when I saw my regular physician, I wonder why there is such a rabid hate on for this profession?”

Here is some background that you may be able to appreciate…

In the early 1960s, the AMA created the “Committee on Quackery,” its written goal to contain and eliminate the Chiropractic profession.  The AMA told their members it was unethical to associate with Chiropractors in any way, from accepting a patient referral to teaching in a Chiropractic college.

How could Chiropractors learn pathology, the study of disease, for example, if pathologists (who are medical doctors) could not teach them?  Other measures would have to suffice; meanwhile at the Canadian Chiropractic school, a team of four leading pathologists were teaching the Chiropractic students.

In 1975, an anonymous individual claiming to be a disgruntled AMA staff member leaked internal documents about the AMA’s crusade to destroy the Chiropractic industry.  The press called the informant “Sore Throat.”

In 1977, an antitrust lawsuit (Wilk et al v. AMA et al, No.90-542, October 1990) was filed by five Chiropractors, including Chester Wilk, D.C., from Chicago and Michael D. Pedigo, D.C. from San Leandro, CA.  The lawsuit did not seek monetary damages, but challenged the refusal of medical doctors to aknowledge Chiropractors as healthcare professionals.

In 1987, a judge issued a permanent injunction against the AMA and ruled that the AMA had engaged in a “lengthy, systematic, successful and unlawful boycott.”  During the proceedings, it was shown that the AMA attempted to:

  * Undermine Chiropractic schools
  * Undercut insurance programs for Chiropractic patients
  * Conceal evidence of the effectiveness of Chiropractic care
  * Subvert government inquiries into the effectiveness of Chiropractic
  * Promote other activities that would control the monopoly that the AMA had on health care

The AMA had offered a patient care defense; they were working in the patient’s best interest.  However, data from Workers’ Compensation Bureau studies served to validate Chiropractic care. Specifically, studies comparing Chiropractic and medical care showed that Chiropractors were “twice as effective as medical physicians, for comparable injuries, in returning injured workers to work at every level of injury severity.”

In 1990, the Court of Appeals also found the AMA guilty.

For the original questioner in this thread- I hope this goes a long way to explain the kneejerk reaction some have to chiropractic.  They’re vestiges, or still active pieces of this AMA boycott.

THis is not mentioned in text I pasted in, but when the Supreme Court tried to talk to the chair of the Quackery Committee (who was not cooperative)- one of his responses to the quality of education question was that the profs at these schools were minorities, not good enough to teach at regular medical schools.  Boy, our clinical microbiology professor visibly almost blew out an artery when telling us this story.

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