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Need advice…
Posted: 20 April 2010 06:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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WeeDie - 20 April 2010 06:53 AM

I don’t think a simple superstition can produce such profound experiences as worshiping a singular origin can.

Worshipping a singular origin is a superstition.

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Posted: 20 April 2010 07:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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dougsmith - 20 April 2010 06:56 AM
WeeDie - 20 April 2010 06:53 AM

I don’t think a simple superstition can produce such profound experiences as worshiping a singular origin can.

Worshipping a singular origin is a superstition.

I beg to differ. If it has a significant effect, it is more then a superstition. In spiritual tradition, it is representative of the Higher Self. A position of humility and respect, even fear, before it is appropriate. How much do you know about the psychology of transformation?

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Posted: 20 April 2010 10:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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I have to congratulate you, Weedie.  Seldom have I seen two sentences with more irrational, unprovable drivel. “If it has a significant effect, it is more then a superstition. In spiritual tradition, it is representative of the Higher Self.”  And just because you attach a word for a scientific discipline “psychology” doesn’t make a fairytale real.

Occam

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Posted: 20 April 2010 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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You’re the one driveling Occam. I’m trying to put forward an authentic perspective, that could be applied in or derived from a serious study in the sociology and psychology of genuine spiritual practice. But you’re not interested in any authenticity to spiritual practice. You’ve already made up your mind about it, and come with pointless attacks instead of trying to understand or contribute to what I’m saying.

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“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” -Voltaire
“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” - Thomas Paine
“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
“It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.” - Baha’u'llah

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Posted: 20 April 2010 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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You know Traveler, I was just off in a whole different direction, but you and your twelve + week old bundle of potentialities crashed back into my thoughts.  Probably because - for me - that period of conception and momma in the shower with me and that little one actually happening (we’d gone sans birth control six years dude, with a few false starts) and growing.  I talked to my little Ciara long before actually meeting her face to face.  And I tell you those hours of labor and all, I literally touched infinitely with all who came before, in a way that would even blow WeeDee away.

Perhaps consider if. . .
Maybe it would be a good time to give that god and faith crap a rest.

You and your wife are touching infinity with what you are going through!

Focus on that for the next few months. 

Have you ever heard of Lennard Nilsson, or seen his images?  Actually of course you have, but have you looked at it closely?
Check it out:  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/miracle/program.html

ps. thank you asanta for rattling those memories again.

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Posted: 20 April 2010 03:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Traveler: On top of Mike’s excellent idea of introducing the concept of cognitive dissonance and providing examples, I’d also suggest slowly (and passively) immersing your wife in your world. You know, maybe put some secular literature (maybe some Sam Harris, or Dawkins) up on the shelf beside the bible. Don’t ask her to read it, just introduce its presence. You could also just start up a program like The Atheism Tapes (good series of interviews, available on Netflix instant watch, fyi) and watch it…with, or without her; let her decide to come sit with you or not. If you show her how important these things are to you, and how harmless (maybe even how helpful) they are, maybe she’ll open up to the idea of listening to you.

Also, it sounds like she might be afraid of the concept of atheism; if you’re going to talk, I would ask her what SHE thinks of secular humanism. Start there. Confront her biases against it by showing her that you, the person she loves, are as good and decent as any theist…maybe even more so!

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Posted: 20 April 2010 05:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Some good suggestions above - share your world. Most people respect someone who has put thought and effort into asking the “big questions”.

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Posted: 20 April 2010 06:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Everyone has offered me great advice to consider. I’m also referring to the suggestions of those who are advising against the whole thing. I’m working on a compromise between all of these suggestions. I’ll update you guys on how things turn out. Thank you.

[ Edited: 17 September 2011 07:20 AM by Cloak ]
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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 20 April 2010 08:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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A woman looking forward to childbirth cannot help but become spiritual, after all, they are carrying a life which has never existed before, with your genetic mysterious genetic lottery at work. If she is religious, quite probably she will become more so, for a while. Your child will have 18 years to reach adulthood. You want her to have a positive childbirth experience. It won’t help to challenge her beliefs right now. I can tell you that if there is ANY problem with the pregnancy/delivery, and you have tried to change her world view during that time, she will be 10 times more resistant to change, and quite possibly lay the blame on you.  You can afford to wait a year or two, to let her come off of cloud 9 before you begin to introduce her to a reasoned way of thinking. go slowly….

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Posted: 20 April 2010 11:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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asanta - 20 April 2010 08:17 PM

A woman looking forward to childbirth cannot help but become spiritual, after all, they are carrying a life which has never existed before, with your genetic mysterious genetic lottery at work. If she is religious, quite probably she will become more so, for a while. Your child will have 18 years to reach adulthood. You want her to have a positive childbirth experience. It won’t help to challenge her beliefs right now. I can tell you that if there is ANY problem with the pregnancy/delivery, and you have tried to change her world view during that time, she will be 10 times more resistant to change, and quite possibly lay the blame on you.  You can afford to wait a year or two, to let her come off of cloud 9 before you begin to introduce her to a reasoned way of thinking. go slowly….

Wise words.

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Posted: 16 September 2011 11:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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I never gave you guys an update:

First of all, I really hope that Asanta and Jules see this, but thank you very much for your womanly advice. You guys seemed to understand my wife without me having to tell you anything about her. While many of the other posters gave equally valuable advice, I think some of the things you two said really hit home for me. After getting off of the computer that night, I spent many weeks thinking it over, trying to figure out what the most important thing was to me.

At that time, I was still “fresh” in my new identity as a non-theist, and very fired up. I believed that the key to “fixing” this society was by educating the world “out of religion”. Since then, I’ve learned so much, and I still have a lot more to learn. I’ve “grown up a bit” since that last discussion.

Back to what I was saying earlier. After thinking it over for a while, I decided that the most important thing to me in my marriage was that we would both be happy with each other, and that we could raise a happy family. I wanted to remain passionately in love with my wife, and I wanted her to continue to love me the same. Getting her to adopt my perspective didn’t seem like such a big deal anymore, as long as we both found ways to respect our differences. We’ve had many talks on this subject since then. It brought her great relief when I first sat down with her and told her that I didn’t care whether or not she wanted to remain a Christian. I told her that the most important thing is that we make each other happy. I also told her that I’d always be willing to discuss religion with her, whenever she felt like it, but I didn’t want her to ever feel obligated to do so.  She understood and agreed.

Since then, our relationship has grown stronger than its ever been in the years we’ve known each other. She’s learned that, despite my abandonment of religion, she can still trust me to be the man that she needs, and that I will always be there for her and our children. She always tells me how good of a husband I am, and how she doesn’t regret marrying me, despite whatever troubles we go through. Having a woman that trusts you with her heart, and is willing to make herself vulnerable to you is much more important than her agreeing with you on every philosophical issue. Also, we tend to agree on issues of practicality, so our feelings on the issue of theism rarely get in the way of our day-to-day decisions and interactions.

We both understand that there will be difficulties when it comes to raising our children, but we’ve both vowed to each other that we will try to follow the same principles in raising our children that keep us together as a couple: Love and respect. Our commitment to these principles has helped us through our disagreements so far, and its our hope that it will be just as helpful to us as parents. We’re taking it one step at a time.

Oh, and by the way, my daughter is now 10 months old, and I’ve got another girl on the way in January!

[ Edited: 17 September 2011 01:50 AM by Cloak ]
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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 17 September 2011 01:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Congratulations! grin

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Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

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Posted: 17 September 2011 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Yes, congrats and best of luck to you. I suspect there will be some turbulence ahead when you face raising your kids, but with goodwill on both sides I have no doubt it can be overcome.

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Doug

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El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

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Posted: 17 September 2011 06:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Cloak - 20 April 2010 06:25 PM

Everyone has offered me great advice to consider. I’m also referring to the suggestions of those who are advising against the whole thing. I’m working on a compromise between all of these suggestions. I’ll update you guys on how things turn out. Thank you.

-Traveler-

Congrats, but could you please stop signing your posts with my screen name? It’s just confusing.

Cloak   LOL

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Posted: 17 September 2011 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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traveler - 17 September 2011 06:29 AM
Cloak - 20 April 2010 06:25 PM

Everyone has offered me great advice to consider. I’m also referring to the suggestions of those who are advising against the whole thing. I’m working on a compromise between all of these suggestions. I’ll update you guys on how things turn out. Thank you.

-Traveler-

Congrats, but could you please stop signing your posts with my screen name? It’s just confusing.

Cloak   LOL

Lol. That post was before I changed my sign name. I didn’t even know you existed at the time that I posted this. I’ll tell you what, I’ll edit that part out right now, but it still means that everyone else here needs to edit the name “Traveler” out of their posts too if we are going to be consistent. -shrugs-

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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