===========
This actually started as a post to another thread: “Sometimes I just have to keep my mouth shut”
But, it got away from me in a way that I think it, that is, Kathy’s story deserves its own thread.
~ ~ ~
Hmm,
I’ll admit I just rapidly skimmed this thread, maybe actually reading only 10%

From early on, and what kept me going, was memories of my pal Kathy vs the sober ama perspective.

Kathy got waylaided, one month she was doing great, except for this little persistent internal irritation.
Next month a hair’s breath from death.  Fortunately, she was of the financially advantaged types, a fast plane to New York and a #1 hospital, can’t recall the name right now.  Talk about being hit with a tsunami, almost lost her, ugly tough long operation, had to cut out much.  Nothing but a raging desire to remain alive saved her…. 

Well, OK nothing but a world class medical team could have kept that ravaged body ticking.  But, it was she, Kathy with her intense spark of life that refused to toss in the towel.  She saved her own life.
Thank you doc’s and support staff for giving her that chance, which other lesser hospitals just couldn’t have offered… still it was she who tipped the scale.

Well, ok she recovered her life back.  But, boy oh boy did she receive a hit.  Difficult recovery, then the little bastards slowly regrouped.  But, she wanted to live.  She did every thing to buy herself another potential.  Never neglected the sober doctors advice, yet never turning her back on faith and hope and whatever anyone offered.

The cancer finally took her - but it had to fight one hell of a scorch and burn battle of attrition on her body until there just wasn’t enough left for her spirit to motivate and it was time to say good-bye.

That other stuff means something!  We are not just flesh and bones!  We are spirit and aspirations and hope and fear and we are all alone.  And God is out there for us to cling to in whatever her manifestations.

I just wish we could realize that each of those manifestations is merely our own dream of her… or him if you demand.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The moral: Kathy scratched and clawed a little more than another years worth of life out of her body, using every possible means to do so.  Come with all your learned objections, but there is something there one shouldn’t ignore.

[I’ve mentioned Kathy before, just for clarity, we were close friends, not intimate or such]

Thanks for your thoughts mate, Mike.

I’m sorry to hear of your loss…thanks for sharing.

asanta - 22 April 2010 08:27 AM

I’m sorry to hear of your loss…thanks for sharing.

Thank you.
But, beyond the sharing of loss, I wanted to make the following point

citizenschallenge - 22 April 2010 01:07 AM

But, she wanted to live.  She did everything to buy herself another potential.  Never neglected the sober doctors advice, yet never turning her back on faith and hope and whatever anyone offered.

That other stuff means something! We are not just flesh and bones!  We are spirit and aspirations and hope and fear and we are all alone.  And God is out there for us to cling to in whatever her manifestations.

I just wish we could realize that each of those manifestations is merely our own dream of her… or him, if you demand.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The moral: Kathy scratched and clawed a little more than another years worth of life out of her body, using every possible means to do so.  Come with all your learned objections, but there is something there one shouldn’t ignore.

I’m sorry for your loss, but I don’t know what you mean by those bolded sections. We are, indeed, nothing more than flesh and bones. We are purely physical beings: this is what science is telling us all the time. I don’t know what the “other stuff” is that you say “means something”. What “other stuff”? Where is it?

And God is nonexistent, only a figment of our imaginations. Sometimes it can be comforting to regress to a sort of childlike state and cling to our dreams, but in the end facing reality is the best policy for us all.

One might say that the biggest issue for getting something done about subjects like AGW is overcoming people’s knee-jerk tendency to self-deception when presented with bad options. It feels good but could doom us all.

dougsmith - 22 April 2010 09:17 AM

One might say that the biggest issue for getting something done about subjects like AGW is overcoming people’s knee-jerk tendency to self-deception when presented with bad options.

Now wait a minute, there is a big difference between worrying about something physical observable such as AGW and our eternity old musing about “god” and our interior being, spirit (the watcher) which are ultimately unresolvable anyhoo.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

dougsmith - 22 April 2010 09:17 AM

We are, indeed, nothing more than flesh and bones. We are purely physical beings: this is what science is telling us all the time. I don’t know what the “other stuff” is.

I’m getting this sense of Déjà Vu, isn’t this where I came in way back when?

We are not just flesh and bones!  We are spirit, personality, driven life force, with aspirations and hope and fear and we are all alone. . .

I just wish we could realize that each of those self-created manifestations of “god” is merely our own dream of her… or him, if you demand.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
We have a state of mind, that influences the flesh and bone body, and I don’t think any of the astounding discoveries made about the physiology or chemistry have mastered that ineffable thing.  Guess I’m still not any better at trying to explain this intelligently.

And right now I’m pretty bummed with myself, because I can’t seem to dig up this excellent interview that I was sure I heard on FreshAir, a couple months back.  With this grand old prominent doctor/surgeon who discussed his own patient interaction as he began to appreciate the emotional, spiritual side of patient care and how that had a direct impact upon outcomes.  I’m pretty sure he’d just published a book too.  I’m going to keep searching because he does a much more learned job of describing what I can’t.

someone out there throw me a bone 

citizenschallenge - 22 April 2010 11:03 AM

We have a state of mind, that influences the flesh and bone body, and I don’t think any of the astounding discoveries made about the physiology or chemistry have mastered that ineffable thing.  Guess I’m still not any better at trying to explain this intelligently.

Your “state of mind” may influence your body, but it is your brain (a part of your body) that makes your state of mind. What are to you talking about, CC?

George - 22 April 2010 11:58 AM

Your “state of mind” may influence your body, but it is your brain (a part of your body) that makes your state of mind. What are to you talking about, CC?

citizenschallenge - 22 April 2010 11:03 AM

spirit, personality, driven life force, with aspirations and hope and fear and we are all alone. . .
someone out there throw me a bone 

The “mind” that thing that is greater than the sum of the brain’s parts.
The mystery of being human.
The thing that forces humans to seek visions of gods and religions. . .  or some substitute there of.

What you’re describing here (personality, hope, fear, search for god, etc.) are obviously all product of the brain. I still don’t understand what you’re trying to say.

citizenschallenge - 22 April 2010 11:03 AM

dougsmith - 22 April 2010 09:17 AM

One might say that the biggest issue for getting something done about subjects like AGW is overcoming people’s knee-jerk tendency to self-deception when presented with bad options.

Now wait a minute, there is a big difference between worrying about something physical observable such as AGW and our eternity old musing about “god” and our interior being, spirit (the watcher) which are ultimately unresolvable anyhoo.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

dougsmith - 22 April 2010 09:17 AM

We are, indeed, nothing more than flesh and bones. We are purely physical beings: this is what science is telling us all the time. I don’t know what the “other stuff” is.

I’m getting this sense of Déjà Vu, isn’t this where I came in way back when?

We are not just flesh and bones!  We are spirit, personality, driven life force, with aspirations and hope and fear and we are all alone. . .

I just wish we could realize that each of those self-created manifestations of “god” is merely our own dream of her… or him, if you demand.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
We have a state of mind, that influences the flesh and bone body, and I don’t think any of the astounding discoveries made about the physiology or chemistry have mastered that ineffable thing.  Guess I’m still not any better at trying to explain this intelligently.

And right now I’m pretty bummed with myself, because I can’t seem to dig up this excellent interview that I was sure I heard on FreshAir, a couple months back.  With this grand old prominent doctor/surgeon who discussed his own patient interaction as he began to appreciate the emotional, spiritual side of patient care and how that had a direct impact upon outcomes.  I’m pretty sure he’d just published a book too.  I’m going to keep searching because he does a much more learned job of describing what I can’t.

someone out there throw me a bone 

I’ll throw you a bone. What you are describing is real. It’s real in the sense of thoughts, and emotions. But more importantly I think is culture. Culture, inculcated ideas that can’t be shaken off by even the most hardened atheist. It’s what I posted about awhile back concerning atheists in foxholes. So the culture is real, and the thoughts are real, and what you and your friend experienced is real, and heartening. The vast, vast majority of folks simply cannot shrug off what years of living in a superstitious, spirit planet have encrusted into their minds, especially if they were raised that way from infancy.
This is what I’m willing to offer up. And I’m a hardened atheist with no illusions as to the power of suggestion, and inculcation, and full and total immersion into a planet of mysticism.

More morbidly, this is especially prevalent in people who are suffering slow deaths, or a living in a world of constant death, and always thinking of death. Lot’s of time to contemplate, lot’s of time to reach for answers or hopes.
Obviously the person who dies in their sleep, or is shot in the head by a robber doesn’t have time to consider these notions.

I thought I’d commented on this late last night, but I guess I wound up hitting ‘delete’ rather than ‘enter’ . . . not an uncommon practice of mine.

But that was last night and now is now and I’d like to just as easily turn the question back on you folks.

Following the above descriptions I’m left with human as automaton.
And that clearly is not the case.
OK, if I wanted to get real cynical I’d counter: bullshit look at those millions of people who venerate the likes of Palin, Teabaggers, et al., to say nothing of those quite literally sociopathic greed driven “pillars” of our financial/industrial/politicial world, it’s proof positive that the human is an instinct driven animal still controlled by reptilian core circuitry.

But still, their is more to the story.

delete. . . ,
delete. . . ,
I got no answers or replies, but lets probe a little more.

As mentioned, reading the comments above (and such) it seems to me: all I’m left with is a world full of automotans.
What about the rest of the story?
What is this thing called culture?
What is it that causes people to create and cling to gods and spend massive amounts of time, energy “worshiping”?
What makes us want to create & enjoy art plus learning?
There is something spectacularly special about these things as manifested in humans. . .

But the above posts seem to come from a space, voided of appreciation for those aspects of us people.
No I’m not saying anything is ‘proof’ of anything other than a truth beyond all of our understanding.