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Why do Tea Partiers love ‘Atlas Shrugged’?
Posted: 18 June 2010 03:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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I love the idea of everyone doing whatever they want.  Anarchy baby!  Everyone for himself.  I say we remove all regulations on everything and let the ever benevolent human spirit take care of everyone.  Clearly those with the power, resources, and means of the world will act out of kindness to help others.  It’s just sensible.  And history has shown us that, when allowed to run free of authority or oversight people never ever abuse or exploit their weaker, less fortunate fellows.  It’s all rainbows and puppies.

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Posted: 18 June 2010 04:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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The only person I recall directly saying I was lying, then apologized when I provided the actual youtube and/or articles that proved what I was saying.  So you can “LOL” all you want, but no one has shown I made up facts.  You may not care about those facts or issues (which is my claim, largely), but no one has said that it is false that Obama, for example (like that stupid idiot Bush, right?), referred to a non-existent language, or referred to 57 states, or bowed to the Saudi King, or gave DVDs to the PM of the UK.  And other issues, which are clearly policy issues, which are almost always subjective, are fair game, just as they are with the left. You must have me confused with a birther or something, because I’ve never claimed anything farcical about the guy. He is what he is. 

You simply asserting that I’ve made up facts, doesn’t make it true.  Show me where.  The other poster (was it Rocinante or something), provided a dozen details of Obama doing or saying something stupid (again, all sourced), and he was attacked also.

As to saying “well, you did it too”, I concede that point, and my response is simply that liberals are hypocrites that clearly do not care about the things they claim they care about when it’s “their guy” (for lack of a better way to put it). 

Bush does X=  he’s an idiot who cannot speak, who doesn’t understand history, foreign nations, cultures, is a racist, blah blah blah

Obama does X= hey, ‘we’re cool with it’ or, ‘it doesn’t really matter’, or ‘he just got started’ or ‘since when does that stuff matter anyhow?”  Or the famous “you’re a racist” *(or sarcastically applied, “oh,  and you’re not a racist”, etc, for expressing a negative view).

Btw, since when is public discussions about the President so “sensitive” ? Oh, that’s right….since Obama won.  Liberals dish it out, but can’t take it.  And how MUCH you would love to portray me as some crazed right-winger, but alas, like all libertarians, I present the same problem…you know we are pro-gay, pro-drug, largely pro-abortion, pro-immigration…so you are kinda stuck with the same stuff, or some version.

“Oh, you make up stuff…and you’re a racist” Or whatever.  Grow up and start thinking critically. Start with the greatest man-made disaster this country has faced and your president’s response (ya, I get to say that now….your president…“well, he’s not my president” right??? libs said that for 8 years).

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Posted: 18 June 2010 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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Sandy Price - 18 June 2010 04:08 AM

This is a common complaint all over the internet.  Everyone can claim that everything that is wrong, is the fault of the “other party.”  My main complaint is that the GOP has not come up with a rational fix for nearly 20 years.  It is difficult to demand anything from either side without a firm agenda of what can be described as any “fix.”

American politics goes from one Party cleaning up the mess of the previous Administration.  Our entire world is based on emergency actions whether in war or some disaster.  Much of the arguments bring up the lack of regulations in our safety factors in America.  None of us would want to live in a home with faulty plumbing, or dangerous cracks in the foundations but when the home gets a new owner every 8 years without repairs, it will fail. 

Neither government (right or left) looks at American safety as a priority.  We want control over the planet and our wars prove we do not have the stones or brains to accomplish anything.  Trying to look for a fix of anything requires knowledge and an educated voter base.  America has no interest in anything other than killing terrorists.  We even have our own terrorists to organize against our government to keep the control on the right side over the left. 

I have never voted Democrat but my observations show that President Obama has the edge on all others as he can Zero in on the emergencies that need fixing.  I slipped into the LP basically because there was nothing within the GOP or Dems that appealed to my free thinking soul. 

I Googled into the Tea Party organization and found that the new leader is a DUI Lawyer from the bible belt.  It is a “for-profit” group with vitually no agenda of its own.  I need to know the enemy!  The enemy is ignorance.  Anyone familiar with George Orwell can see the end of America clearly.  “Why Orwell Matters” is a book written by Christopher Hitchens that explains much of what is wrong with America.  I have to rely on the writings of others as my own brain has not been programmed to fix anything including my television.  A simple look at all opinions has shown me a complete lack of right over wrong.  Religion has wiped out this vital part of our values and we must return to cleaning up our own values before we throw stones at others. 

Where can we debate and discuss possible fixes for our problems?  We know what’s wrong but where can we discuss what to do about it?

I do not see how anyone could simply watch Obama’s response (or lack thereof, more appropriately worded) to the largest man-made disaster in US history and say that he can “zero in on the emergencies that need fixing.”  That’s a stunning observation.  Just heard yesterday on the hard news channel here in DC that he has yet to meet with the joint caucus of Louisiana congressman (both dem and rep).  50 days out and the guy gives a speech?  Showing up and poking around in the sand for a few hours before playing golf nearly twice as long, and partying it up hard at the White House? We have an adolescent in the WH, plain and simple. 

I hazard to say, even for those who support the liberal philosophy, it’s become pretty clear to at least a LOT of people—This guy is in WAY over his head, and yes, his lack of experience leading and/or managing anything has revealed itself so completely and thoroughly that even the Louisiana residents say Bush handled Katrina better than Obama’s handled this.

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Posted: 19 June 2010 04:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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Ulster, you have brought out the great missing link in our government.  It is not a forceful right or left leader, it is a balanced strong movement from both sides.  We are facing a Republican agenda that is nothing but to destroy Obama.  It is driven by a level of ignorsance that only the right side of the aisle has the ability to lead America.  It was this “lead” that allowed the housing mess to fall into the hands of the banks and the corporations who were allowed to build inadequate drilling procedures.  Nobody is watching the store.

The fear that Obama would have an angenda of total destruction of America was a product of hysteria found from the churches and the internet.  It was led by millions of Americans who listened to men like Beck, Limbaugh, Fox News and sadly from the Christian leaders who were being paid to elect Christian White Men into office.  I saw this scenario as far back as 1999 when the GOP decided to put God in the Constitution from coast to coast.  I had read enough of the hysteria from the Christians all over the world and the damage they did to other nations.  The uprising from the churches saw their chance at control over the American people by pushing Governor Buish into office and directing is every move in the government.  Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell wrote up the new agenda of prohibitions and actually sold it to the Christian Congregations who were there only to obey. 

The problem of this movement, in my eyes, was to remove every single bit of individuality from all Christians.  The commitment to Jesus Christ removed the art of decision making from a vast number of American voters.  For generations, the children were taught that they were worthless sinners and they must obey the words of Jesus Christ.  I remember being a young girl who searched for those words of wisdom.  Jesus said very little but the holes were filled in by men who were paid to push the agenda of worthless followers. 

Generations of creating the concept that humans are worthless has finally gelled.  To think outside the bible is an abomination.  To think is against the rules of heaven. 

There has always been an agenda of fiscal responsibility found in the Republican Party.  But it was handed to a President who abused and destroyed one entire side of the balance in the government.  President Bush 43 was bigger than the party, bigger than the White House and bigger than the Bible.  His father’s dream of an American Empire was just the place to bring in the Christians.  He was a fraud!  He wanted the power of the Empire and he knew all he had to do was claim it in the name of Jesus Christ. 

I’ve been observing the White House for over 50 years and have seldom seen such abuse of power.  But he did it with full approval of the Christian American voters.  The irony of this comes from the the GOP not pushing to include the bible belt voters in the 1960s and 70s.  We were told to leave them alone as they were not informed enough to take on federal government issues.  Today these same fools are leading the GOP.

So America ends up with an imbalance of religious wingnuts pushing an agenda that is utterly cruel to people, the environment and the spirit of American values.  Individuality is losing to collective insanity.  The whole point of Rand’s writing is based on Individuality.  She wrote for the betterment of all humans.  Her philosophy was, like Orwell, a warning sign of the destruction of our human values. 

Readers who find Rand too old fashioned and out of date have never tried to get through Aristotle and his words.  I hear this daily from my own friends who are all over 70 years old.  They are accustomed to television and anything over Romper Room and Oprah is a foreign language.  I fear the damage has been done. 

Will it ever be possible to have a generation of humans who can evolve out of this lack of brain stimulation?  I asked a scientists this question of whether our brains are based on “use it or lose it” and was told “no”......Our evolution brought us into a pattern of free thinking and this can never be bred out of our next generations. 

Will it be the responsibility of the Humanists to stop the degeneration of individual action in our language and thinking?

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Posted: 19 June 2010 03:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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Dead Monky - 18 June 2010 03:02 PM

I love the idea of everyone doing whatever they want.  Anarchy baby!  Everyone for himself.  I say we remove all regulations on everything and let the ever benevolent human spirit take care of everyone.  Clearly those with the power, resources, and means of the world will act out of kindness to help others.  It’s just sensible.  And history has shown us that, when allowed to run free of authority or oversight people never ever abuse or exploit their weaker, less fortunate fellows.  It’s all rainbows and puppies.

... see DM I figured you got a few good thoughts hiding in there wink
I do agree with this summation of what “Randism” has to offer a crowded society, on a shrinking planet.

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Posted: 19 June 2010 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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I read Rand as a philosophy where individuals live by their own values, not the values of the masses.  We have seen what Christians have done through their massive hypocrisy in their desire to follow Jesus Christ.  Humans have the ability and the capacity to live as decent members of society without taking from others that which they have not earned.

The masses choose to live as slaves to a master God and government.  Rand says “no way.”  Every human on this earth has the capacity to determine right over wrong.  For some reason many choose not to.  It may be too late for many here, but we do have the ability to point out the freedoms to our children.  If the family has the right values, it will show in their neighborhoods and in turn in their districtics of government all the way to the White House.  The problem may be we simply do not have the proper language skills.  Too much cheap television…....

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Posted: 20 June 2010 03:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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Sandy Price - 19 June 2010 04:34 PM

I read Rand as a philosophy where individuals live by their own values, not the values of the masses.

Too much cheap television…....

Yea, but people shouldn’t pretend we don’t live in an over crowded world and must learn to deal ‘with the reality of the masses.’

I do agree: too much cheap TV, or more accurately Boob Tube - with it’s insidious Hollyworld-think which those masses suckle down like mama’s milk - is bad, bad.

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Posted: 21 June 2010 06:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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This combination of cheap television and cheap religion has removed the concept of individual thinking from the overpopulated uneducated masses.  Just imagine a population that is told to breed their women to make more Christians.  Even promiscuity is forgiven by the Christian God and abortions are prohibited which removes individual growth in most parts of the free world.  The problem in America is the growth of religion in our government.  This has been the downfall of many nations on this planet.  Islam has been allowed into the majority of nations with their end game to destroy Christians.  For 2000 years, Christians will never consider any other religion as valid.  The growth of Islam started wars all over the planet.  I see no advantage to either God raping the minds of any human being. 

Freedom on this planet can only be found when the Gods are thrown out of the governments.  This can only happen when the citizens start thinking as individuals and form their own values and live by them.  Shakespeare had it very right when he wrote “To thine own self be true.”  Rand hated the thought of collectivism and her examples were as clear as fresh spring water.  I fear the collectivists can not handle individual concepts and are using God(s) to round up the most vulnerable of our species. 

Our only chance to get out of this hold on the minds of our people, is to watch science prove the source of life in the universe.  They had better get to is before the Gods destroy our planet.

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Posted: 21 June 2010 09:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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Sandy Price - 21 June 2010 06:31 AM

This combination of cheap television and cheap religion has removed the concept of individual thinking from the overpopulated uneducated masses.  Just imagine a population that is told to breed their women to make more Christians.  Even promiscuity is forgiven by the Christian God and abortions are prohibited which removes individual growth in most parts of the free world.  The problem in America is the growth of religion in our government.  This has been the downfall of many nations on this planet.  Islam has been allowed into the majority of nations with their end game to destroy Christians.  For 2000 years, Christians will never consider any other religion as valid.  The growth of Islam started wars all over the planet.  I see no advantage to either God raping the minds of any human being. 

Freedom on this planet can only be found when the Gods are thrown out of the governments.  This can only happen when the citizens start thinking as individuals and form their own values and live by them.  Shakespeare had it very right when he wrote “To thine own self be true.”  Rand hated the thought of collectivism and her examples were as clear as fresh spring water.  I fear the collectivists can not handle individual concepts and are using God(s) to round up the most vulnerable of our species. 

Our only chance to get out of this hold on the minds of our people, is to watch science prove the source of life in the universe.  They had better get to is before the Gods destroy our planet.

I’ve come to the opinion that you can’t fix the world. You blame this party or that party. This nation or that nation. Religion or science.

You just can’t fix other people. Some people think education is the answer, it’s not. I guess people think if the other guys was educated then they’d obviously accept the right POV on the world.

You’d have to change the nature of people. I know plenty of great individuals who never got past the 3rd grade. They are kind and considerate. You don’t have to be smart to treat another individual as a human being.

Truth is it is just as easy to become bigoted about education and science as anything else.

What you can do, what anyone can do is work to fix themselves. Just try to treat everyone fairly and honestly. be ready to forgive people when the step on your toes. We are not perfect and we make mistakes. If you really want to change the nature of other people you do so by changing your own nature and being the example.

Return hate with compassion and fear with friendship. Some will seek to take advantage of you and really act the part of the evil human being. However I think you can find strength in your honesty, integrity and compassion.

You can’t fix the world, but you can fix yourself and in doing so become an example for the rest.

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Posted: 21 June 2010 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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Gnostikosis - 21 June 2010 09:42 AM

I’ve come to the opinion that you can’t fix the world. You blame this party or that party. This nation or that nation. Religion or science.

I am getting tired of these hyperbolic statements. Why would anyone blame science? Didn’t science “fix the world” with the development of Jonas Salk’s polio vaccine, for example? Agreed, though, on religion not adding much to the well-being of our species. I don’t know if you’re speaking out of ignorance or just good old religious fanaticism—but these two probably go together, right?

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Posted: 21 June 2010 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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George, far be it for me to defend Gnostikosis, smile , but I don’t think he was blaming science.  Rather, it seems that it might be clearer if he had used “one”  instead of “you” or “people” for the second “you”.  And he follows it up with an explanation of this by his ending statement, “You can’t fix the world, but you can fix yourself and in doing so become an example for the rest.” 

I think he was saying -  People should not blame this party or that party, this nation or that nation, religion, or science for the state of the world.


Occam

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Posted: 21 June 2010 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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Occam - 21 June 2010 11:14 AM

George, far be it for me to defend Gnostikosis, smile , but I don’t think he was blaming science.  Rather, it seems that it might be clearer if he had used “one”  instead of “you” or “people” for the second “you”.  And he follows it up with an explanation of this by his ending statement, “You can’t fix the world, but you can fix yourself and in doing so become an example for the rest.” 

I think he was saying -  People should not blame this party or that party, this nation or that nation, religion, or science for the state of the world.


Occam

Yes, you’re right. I apologize, Gnostikosis. Thanks, Occam.

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Posted: 21 June 2010 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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George - 21 June 2010 11:21 AM
Occam - 21 June 2010 11:14 AM

George, far be it for me to defend Gnostikosis, smile , but I don’t think he was blaming science.  Rather, it seems that it might be clearer if he had used “one”  instead of “you” or “people” for the second “you”.  And he follows it up with an explanation of this by his ending statement, “You can’t fix the world, but you can fix yourself and in doing so become an example for the rest.” 

I think he was saying -  People should not blame this party or that party, this nation or that nation, religion, or science for the state of the world.


Occam

Yes, you’re right. I apologize, Gnostikosis. Thanks, Occam.

Sorry, yes I meant you in general… I forget “you” comes across as accusatory usually.

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Posted: 21 June 2010 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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Okay, I’m sure where to begin so I’ll just sort of throw out comments to the last few posts as they come to mind.  I’d like to apologize ahead of time if this gets a little incoherent.

First off, I won’t lie, I don’t like Rand.  I think she was a nutter and that her ‘philosophy’ is a load of shit.  The idea that the world will improve and be better off when people are given free reign to do what they want is moronic.  Name one instance of anarchy where things actually improved and didn’t just devolve into chaos and tribalism or where those in power didn’t immediately begin tearing things apart for their own self-serving ends.  When allowed to run free the worst of humanity always comes to the fore.  Those that have power abuse and exploit those that don’t.  Rand basically just formulated a justification for people be selfish, overgrown children.  Her philosophy is little better than a shoddily constructed defense for sociopaths, the unscrupulous, and the self-centered to point to when they have to justify their a-social behavior.

Second, the idea that religion is the root cause of all the world’s evils and that the world will somehow be magically better when it’s gone is absurd.  Yes, religion and its abuse are responsible for many, many horrors throughout history, but so are many other things.  Blaming religion is simplistic and betrays either shocking naivete or willful ignorance of societal problems and base human nature.  Eliminate religion and human beings will just find some other excuse to rape, kill, and exploit each other.  We’ll do it in the name of the state, of ethnic differences, social differences, what atheists should call themselves, or even just because.

I’m more inclined toward CC’s assertion that over-crowding is the problem, but it’s not.  Not the whole problem at any rate.  Even if we shrank the world population to a more sustainable level (whatever that may be) we would still have starvation, disease, war, exploitation, and bigotry.  And best, over-population exacerbates problems.  It doesn’t create them.

And the media….If there is one thing people on all sides like to blame, it’s the media.  “It’s too liberal.”  “It’s too conservative.”  “It doesn’t educate people enough.”  “It teaches the wrong things.”  “Blah blah fucking blah.”  Sure, the media is idiotic and responsible for problems, but so are people.  The media gives people what they want.  They go where the money is.  If shows on science and fact checking are popular, then they’ll churn them out until they suck every dime out they can.  If the people want shows on bigfoot and ghost hunting then that’s what they get.  Sure, some media outlets try to push an agenda, but even they are just there to exploit a demographic and make money.  If no one watches it fails and the media moves on to the next money maker.

And then there’s education.  Sure, educating people will help, but it won’t fix things.  Many people will still believe their preconceived ideas, no matter how moronic or irrational.  And many others will willfully ignore what’s being taught to them simply to be obstinate.  Even starting with kids won’t help things.  Plenty of people through history have had the best teachers and knowledge growing up only to fall into drugs, delusion, madness, or the simple desire to exploit the weakness and desire to belong of their fellow man.

I wish I had some solutions or some good news, but I don’t.

[ Edited: 21 June 2010 01:01 PM by Dead Monky ]
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Posted: 26 June 2010 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Dead Monky - 21 June 2010 12:39 PM

Okay, I’m sure where to begin so I’ll just sort of throw out comments to the last few posts as they come to mind.  I’d like to apologize ahead of time if this gets a little incoherent.

First off, I won’t lie, I don’t like Rand.  I think she was a nutter and that her ‘philosophy’ is a load of shit.  The idea that the world will improve and be better off when people are given free reign to do what they want is moronic.  Name one instance of anarchy where things actually improved and didn’t just devolve into chaos and tribalism or where those in power didn’t immediately begin tearing things apart for their own self-serving ends.  When allowed to run free the worst of humanity always comes to the fore.  Those that have power abuse and exploit those that don’t.  Rand basically just formulated a justification for people be selfish, overgrown children.  Her philosophy is little better than a shoddily constructed defense for sociopaths, the unscrupulous, and the self-centered to point to when they have to justify their a-social behavior.

Second, the idea that religion is the root cause of all the world’s evils and that the world will somehow be magically better when it’s gone is absurd.  Yes, religion and its abuse are responsible for many, many horrors throughout history, but so are many other things.  Blaming religion is simplistic and betrays either shocking naivete or willful ignorance of societal problems and base human nature.  Eliminate religion and human beings will just find some other excuse to rape, kill, and exploit each other.  We’ll do it in the name of the state, of ethnic differences, social differences, what atheists should call themselves, or even just because.

I’m more inclined toward CC’s assertion that over-crowding is the problem, but it’s not.  Not the whole problem at any rate.  Even if we shrank the world population to a more sustainable level (whatever that may be) we would still have starvation, disease, war, exploitation, and bigotry.  And best, over-population exacerbates problems.  It doesn’t create them.

And the media….If there is one thing people on all sides like to blame, it’s the media.  “It’s too liberal.”  “It’s too conservative.”  “It doesn’t educate people enough.”  “It teaches the wrong things.”  “Blah blah fucking blah.”  Sure, the media is idiotic and responsible for problems, but so are people.  The media gives people what they want.  They go where the money is.  If shows on science and fact checking are popular, then they’ll churn them out until they suck every dime out they can.  If the people want shows on bigfoot and ghost hunting then that’s what they get.  Sure, some media outlets try to push an agenda, but even they are just there to exploit a demographic and make money.  If no one watches it fails and the media moves on to the next money maker.

And then there’s education.  Sure, educating people will help, but it won’t fix things.  Many people will still believe their preconceived ideas, no matter how moronic or irrational.  And many others will willfully ignore what’s being taught to them simply to be obstinate.  Even starting with kids won’t help things.  Plenty of people through history have had the best teachers and knowledge growing up only to fall into drugs, delusion, madness, or the simple desire to exploit the weakness and desire to belong of their fellow man.

I wish I had some solutions or some good news, but I don’t.

Your premise is flawed, she did not support anyone doing what they wanted.  Nor anarchy.  She supported each person doing what they wished as long as it did not harm another (you are free to swing your fist, up to the inch before my face, is usually the example used).  Also, what is wrong with being “selfish” (I note that from a psychological point of view, we all are anyhow, even those who claim not to be…in its rawest verbalized form, we get the “I love doing this XYZ Charity work, it makes me feel good”.  Well, what if it didn’t, would you still do it?”) You are selfish, and yet, communal to the degree necessary to survive in a cluster of any given culture, that’s human nature.

If it came down to you and another person on an island, you’d take yourself every time.  All these alleged liberals that go around talking about being selfish, while they drive huge cars, fly all around the world, etc (which there is nothing wrong with), are so completely phony.  I know, I know…but they say they are doing it for a good cause, or helping people…Ayn Rand believed we should stop with the pretense.  Next time you go to buy a car, cut your buying price in half and give the other half to a homeless person.

Actually, go without one and give away everything above sustenance to another person.

[ Edited: 26 June 2010 03:30 PM by UlsterScots432 ]
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