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Poll
Does religion spoil everything?
Yes 11
No 9
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Hitchen’s is seriously wrong… why religion doesn’t really poison everything.
Posted: 01 June 2010 05:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Atheists have trouble building community because the larger community still punishes open membership in a self-identified atheist community. You don’t see politicians or local businessmen forming/supporting atheist organizations for that reason. The organized religions have been very good at suppressing the competition. Islam will even kill you if you try to switch.

Hitchens, Dawkins, et al. are the shock troops at the front of the wedge into the consciousness of the society. As Dawkins says, it’s a matter of consciousness-raising to get people to accept that you can be non-religious and a good person too. Maybe they have to overstate things to get the media attention, but so be it.

Unitarian (UU) comes as close as I’ve seen to a non-dogmatic community. They adopt some of the ritual trappings of religion, but if that’s what people want, then it’s just good business. I think it’s a huge mistake to get caught up in differences between atheist, agnostic, and humanist (neo or secular or whatever) because they all boil down to the same thing - no reliance on the dogma of ancient “revelation”.

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Posted: 02 June 2010 01:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Bernie_Dehler - 31 May 2010 09:15 PM

I think if atheists want to get people to see the benefits, they need to spell it out as a positive believe system.  This is what secular humanism does.  From what I can tell, people like Dawkins love to tear down religion or even declare war on religion, yet propose nothing positive to replace it with, which they should offer up as secular humanism for consideration as a replacement.

Atheism is not a moral system; it is only a response on a particular position.  As such, it will never provide a belief system as, in your example, secular humanism does.  This criticism of atheism is something of a red herring, IMHO, because this is not even something atheism is meant to address.

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Posted: 04 June 2010 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Iraq was a “secular” state; after much bloodshed, it is now a “democracy” (or republic),

The word “secular” refers to TOLERANCE of all non-violent belief systems.

The USA is likely THE most “secular” of all countries.

Our Constitution (1st Amendment) guarantees that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”.

“Secularists” are often vehement “atheists”.

So far, they have relied on the ACLU to champion their belief system - fighting Christianity and Christian values.

Will “secular” become more and more synonomous with “intolerant”?

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Posted: 04 June 2010 10:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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In terms of people having a non-religious belief system, I believe that France tops the list, and the U.S. is not even toward the top of the list of industrialized nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

Note that this is not the same as counting the secular humanists.

And, yes, “secular” will become more and more synonomous with interolence of others’ intolerance as secularists fight against government establishment and promotion of Christian religion in the U.S.

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Posted: 04 June 2010 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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TromboneAndrew - 04 June 2010 10:30 AM

I believe that France tops the list

These are numbers from five years ago. I wonder how the rising Muslim population in France would affect today’s results.

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Posted: 04 June 2010 11:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Did you ever tour the Cathedrals of Europe?

In France there is the exquisite Notre Dame.

In Vienna, St. Stephens (sp?) dominates the center of the rings.

To name a tiny few.

Many Catholics in Europe, who may think of “secular” as being “tolerant”, not intolerant of other perspectives.

Secularism is NOT anti-religious as so many so-called secular-humanist seem to believe.

It is the essence of tolerance. Some just don’t understand that.

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Posted: 04 June 2010 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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TromboneAndrew - 04 June 2010 10:30 AM

In terms of people having a non-religious belief system, I believe that France tops the list, and the U.S. is not even toward the top of the list of industrialized nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

Note that this is not the same as counting the secular humanists.

And, yes, “secular” will become more and more synonomous with interolence of others’ intolerance as secularists fight against government establishment and promotion of Christian religion in the U.S.

TromboneAndrew,

Perhaps failure to cite a source ACCURATELY is worse than failure to cite it at all.

Reading beyond the “pictures”, the following is stated: “In France, about 12% of the population reportedly attends religious services more than once per month. In a 2003 poll 54% of those polled in France identified themselves as “faithful”, 33% as atheist, 14% as agnostic, and 26% as “indifferent”.[14

There are a number of countries with a “faithful” rating of > ~50%.

The number is old, but I wonder what the Demographics would look like today. From what little I’ve read there has been a return to “faithfulness” after 9/11, in America and elsewhere.

I have no source for that other than a vague recollection.

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Posted: 04 June 2010 01:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Analytic - 04 June 2010 11:31 AM
TromboneAndrew - 04 June 2010 10:30 AM

In terms of people having a non-religious belief system, I believe that France tops the list, and the U.S. is not even toward the top of the list of industrialized nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

Note that this is not the same as counting the secular humanists.

And, yes, “secular” will become more and more synonomous with interolence of others’ intolerance as secularists fight against government establishment and promotion of Christian religion in the U.S.

TromboneAndrew,

Perhaps failure to cite a source ACCURATELY is worse than failure to cite it at all.

Reading beyond the “pictures”, the following is stated: “In France, about 12% of the population reportedly attends religious services more than once per month. In a 2003 poll 54% of those polled in France identified themselves as “faithful”, 33% as atheist, 14% as agnostic, and 26% as “indifferent”.[14

There are a number of countries with a “faithful” rating of > ~50%.

The number is old, but I wonder what the Demographics would look like today. From what little I’ve read there has been a return to “faithfulness” after 9/11, in America and elsewhere.

I have no source for that other than a vague recollection.

What did I say that was wrong?

And, yes, the numbers are not completely current, but these social trends do not spike; if anything, they change very slowly over time.

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Posted: 04 June 2010 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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George - 04 June 2010 10:58 AM
TromboneAndrew - 04 June 2010 10:30 AM

I believe that France tops the list

These are numbers from five years ago. I wonder how the rising Muslim population in France would affect today’s results.

Unless the Muslims are displacing a significant proportion of the population, I doubt they will change the results much at all.

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Posted: 04 June 2010 05:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Regardless, the French have a fairly high % of faithful.

That’s a fact Jack!!

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Posted: 04 June 2010 06:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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I believe that France tops the list

From what I can find, it’s actually Sweden.

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Posted: 04 June 2010 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Dead Monky - 04 June 2010 06:25 PM

I believe that France tops the list

From what I can find, it’s actually Sweden.

Sweden is what I come up with too, and there are other Scandinavian countries more secular than France.

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Posted: 04 June 2010 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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asanta - 04 June 2010 07:42 PM
Dead Monky - 04 June 2010 06:25 PM

I believe that France tops the list

From what I can find, it’s actually Sweden.

Sweden is what I come up with too, and there are other Scandinavian countries more secular than France.

According the Wiki link TromboneAndrew provided the highest number of atheists are in Estonia and the Czech Republic. Sweden is third. But they also show the number of those who “belief in a spirit or life force.” Combining these two numbers, France is at the top.

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Posted: 04 June 2010 08:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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George - 04 June 2010 08:08 PM

According the Wiki link TromboneAndrew provided the highest number of atheists are in Estonia and the Czech Republic. Sweden is third. But they also show the number of those who “belief in a spirit or life force.” Combining these two numbers, France is at the top.

Well, fancy that! I’m moving to France! grin

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Posted: 04 June 2010 08:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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asanta - 04 June 2010 08:47 PM
George - 04 June 2010 08:08 PM

According the Wiki link TromboneAndrew provided the highest number of atheists are in Estonia and the Czech Republic. Sweden is third. But they also show the number of those who “belief in a spirit or life force.” Combining these two numbers, France is at the top.

Well, fancy that! I’m moving to France! grin

Just stay out of Marseille—unless you speak Arabic.

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