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UFO/ET… How sceptic are you ?
Posted: 18 March 2012 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 18 March 2012 02:40 PM
DarronS - 18 March 2012 12:07 PM

Show me the physical evidence and I’ll pay attention.

Don’t ask for much, do you, DarronS?

No, I don’t ask for much. All I want is proof, not hearsay testimony. Decrying people for asking for proof is ridiculous. As others here, I would love for us to make contact with aliens. I also understand the energy requirements for interstellar travel. Those requirements make interstellar travel highly impractical for any civilization. There is no possibility of a return on investment. That does not mean no civilization will try interstellar travel, but it does mean the odds are exceedingly low.

Furthermore, the odds of a space faring civilization existing at the same time we have come of technological age are even more remote than the odds of a civilization developing the technology and spending the capital to travel among the stars. Even if one or more does, the odds of them finding us round to zero. The galaxy is very large, and we are very small.

And consdering the energy requirements of interstellar travel any extraterrestrial craft that entered our solar system would light up the sky brightly enough to be seen during the day as it flipped around and turned on the brakes. We don’t need a piece of metal, we just need to detect the energy released on deceleration.

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Posted: 18 March 2012 04:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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DarronS - 18 March 2012 03:06 PM
Theflyingsorcerer - 18 March 2012 02:40 PM
DarronS - 18 March 2012 12:07 PM

Show me the physical evidence and I’ll pay attention.

Don’t ask for much, do you, DarronS?

No, I don’t ask for much. All I want is proof, not hearsay testimony. Decrying people for asking for proof is ridiculous. As others here, I would love for us to make contact with aliens. I also understand the energy requirements for interstellar travel. Those requirements make interstellar travel highly impractical for any civilization. There is no possibility of a return on investment. That does not mean no civilization will try interstellar travel, but it does mean the odds are exceedingly low.

Furthermore, the odds of a space faring civilization existing at the same time we have come of technological age are even more remote than the odds of a civilization developing the technology and spending the capital to travel among the stars. Even if one or more does, the odds of them finding us round to zero. The galaxy is very large, and we are very small.

And consdering the energy requirements of interstellar travel any extraterrestrial craft that entered our solar system would light up the sky brightly enough to be seen during the day as it flipped around and turned on the brakes. We don’t need a piece of metal, we just need to detect the energy released on deceleration.

Seems to me that I made it very clear that I think you’re asking for a great deal. You won’t accept anything that I, or anyone else on the planet, can possibly actually “show you” as evidence; you want to detect the energy released by an alien spacecraft decelerating. Well, sorry, but I’m unable to “show you” anything like that. I guess we’ll all have to wait until it actually happens.

Although you’re making the rather large assumption that an interstellar spacecraft, launched, presumably, by a civilization whose technology may be thousands of years in advance of ours, would have to decelerate by jetting hot plasma out of the rear end….

Nowhere, in any of my posts on this Forum - or on any other forum - have I ever decried anyone for asking for proof. I agree that to do so would be ridiculous. I’m merely asking what would be acceptable as proof; now I know.

Or perhaps you’d accept TV footage of actual alien spacecraft doing loop-the-loops over downtown Washington?? Again, I can’t “show you” anything like that. Sorry.

In any case, since I’m not in the business of trying to “prove” that we are being visited by alien spacecraft, all of this is somewhat moot. All I’m asking - all I’ve ever asked - is, let’s look at the “evidence” we have, little as it is (and, DarronS, it isn’t all anecdotal; there’s other stuff too) and try to figure out what it means. “Alien spacecraft” is only one possible explanation, and perhaps one of the least probable, all things considered. But let’s not just do the knee-jerk thing, and decide a priori that all those people who report weird stuff are ignorant, uninformed, deluded, over-imaginative drunks.

Incidentally, I’ve yet to see anyone try to “explain” my own sighting, which I described a few posts back and elsewhere on this forum.

Theflyingsorcerer.

ps. “Return on investment”; that’s a strange little phrase. Perhaps our hypothetical “aliens” are a bit less driven by financial considerations than we 21st-century humans are. Perhaps they don’t think about “money” at all, as per “Star Trek”?

[ Edited: 18 March 2012 04:36 PM by Theflyingsorcerer ]
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Posted: 18 March 2012 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 18 March 2012 04:32 PM

Seems to me that I made it very clear that I think you’re asking for a great deal. You won’t accept anything that I, or anyone else on the planet, can possibly actually “show you” as evidence; you want to detect the energy released by an alien spacecraft decelerating. Well, sorry, but I’m unable to “show you” anything like that. I guess we’ll all have to wait until it actually happens.

<snip>

ps. “Return on investment”; that’s a strange little phrase. Perhaps our hypothetical “aliens” are a bit less driven by financial considerations than we 21st-century humans are. Perhaps they don’t think about “money” at all, as per “Star Trek”?

Yeah, I want physical evidence, not hearsay. And you are putting words in my mouth. I would also accept an alien spacecraft or an actual alien as proof of extraterrestrial visitation.

As for ROI, it is not financial: it is energy returned on energy invested. Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to accelerate a minivan mass object to .25 C?

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Posted: 18 March 2012 06:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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DarronS - 18 March 2012 04:42 PM

Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to accelerate a minivan mass object to .25 C?

No, I’d have to ask Psikey.  LOL  LOL  LOL

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Posted: 18 March 2012 06:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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wink

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Posted: 18 March 2012 08:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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DarronS - 18 March 2012 04:42 PM

Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to accelerate a minivan mass object to .25 C?

Frankly, no. Quite a lot, I would imagine. I could figure it out, if I wanted to, but there’s no point. I’ve already described possible scenarios, in this thread and in “Is Ufology now a religion?”, that render the whole question moot. You’re assuming - or at least I think you’re assuming - a spacecraft using reaction mass expulsion for propulsion, which I imagine in a few centuries our descendents will think of as laughably primitive and terribly wasteful of resources.

Oh, and why .25C, in particular?

Anyway: see my posts #s 20, 37 and 74 on this thread, and #s 34, 67, 73, 93 and 101 in"Ufology/religion”.

Please note that nowhere do I make any claims that alien spacecraft are visiting this planet, so don’t throw that “extraordinary claims…..” mantra at me. The only claim I make is that the usual debunking argument, “Other planets are too far away”, is altogether too facile, for several reasons. I’m not going to repeat them here. Read my other posts. If you’re interested. I’ll just say that no-one, yet, has shown me definitively why my points are not valid.

And if you (or anyone else) feels moved to reply, please don’t cherrypick. Answer all my points, not just the easy ones.

Theflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 18 March 2012 10:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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Can you be sure, Flying Sorcerer, that the thing you saw was not produced by your brain, or maybe you’re not remembering it right, as it was back in the 70’s?  I tend to agree that something might be going on with UFO/alien sightings, but so far nothing groundbreaking has come up.  At this point all we can do is keep watching the skies (if we’re inclined) and be patient.

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Posted: 19 March 2012 01:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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mid atlantic - 18 March 2012 10:18 PM

Can you be sure, Flying Sorcerer, that the thing you saw was not produced by your brain, or maybe you’re not remembering it right, as it was back in the 70’s? 

Oh ye gods that is sooooooo drearily predictable; someone who wasn’t there tries to tell me I didn’t “really” see what I saw. That is precisely what I mean by “armchair debunkery”.

To answer your question; yes I can be as close to 100% sure as it’s possible to be that I wasn’t hallucinating or imagining, and yes I’m as close to 100% sure as it’s possible to be that I’m remembering exactly it as it happened. That kind of discombobulating experience creates a very vivid and sharp memory, believe me. Not something that’s easily forgotten.

Theflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 19 March 2012 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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FWIW it doesn’t matter how sure you are. Memory is just not a credible enough witness to provide the “extraordinary evidence” for something that occurred over thirty years ago.

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Posted: 19 March 2012 05:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 19 March 2012 01:06 AM
mid atlantic - 18 March 2012 10:18 PM

Can you be sure, Flying Sorcerer, that the thing you saw was not produced by your brain, or maybe you’re not remembering it right, as it was back in the 70’s? 

Oh ye gods that is sooooooo drearily predictable; someone who wasn’t there tries to tell me I didn’t “really” see what I saw. That is precisely what I mean by “armchair debunkery”.

To answer your question; yes I can be as close to 100% sure as it’s possible to be that I wasn’t hallucinating or imagining, and yes I’m as close to 100% sure as it’s possible to be that I’m remembering exactly it as it happened. That kind of discombobulating experience creates a very vivid and sharp memory, believe me. Not something that’s easily forgotten.

Theflyingsorcerer.

Predictible or not, armchair debunkery meets with armchair storytelling.

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Posted: 19 March 2012 05:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 18 March 2012 08:36 PM

You’re assuming - or at least I think you’re assuming - a spacecraft using reaction mass expulsion for propulsion, which I imagine in a few centuries our descendents will think of as laughably primitive and terribly wasteful of resources.

No, I make no such assumption. Interstellar travel using reaction mass is not possible. Powering an interstellar rocket with conventional fuel would take more mass than exists in the entire universe, so your assumption about my thinking could not be more wrong. You are assuming there will be a viable alternative that can provide power for the time it takes a ship to travel between stars. Doesn’t matter what your fuel source, the energy requirement is the same. And the ship will need a reliable energy supply the entire voyage, with enough in reserve to slow down, stop, and make the return trip and slow down on that end. Oh yeah, and this ship will have to be 100 percent reliable.

Oh, and why .25C, in particular?

Because that is the example Lawrence Krauss used in his book Beyond Star Trek, where he explained the rocket fuel requirements. After acknowledging rocket fuel is a straw man Krauss devoted an entire chapter to possible alternative energy sources. Any fuel source will require about 10,000 times the mass of the spacecraft just to make the trip, including stopping instead of whizzing by at .25 C. This does not include the fuel required for the return journey.

Please note that nowhere do I make any claims that alien spacecraft are visiting this planet, so don’t throw that “extraordinary claims…..” mantra at me.

I didn’t. I just asked for verifiable evidence.

The only claim I make is that the usual debunking argument, “Other planets are too far away”, is altogether too facile, for several reasons.

Then you obviously do not understand the distances involved and the energy required.

I’m not going to repeat them here. Read my other posts. If you’re interested. I’ll just say that no-one, yet, has shown me definitively why my points are not valid.

Oooh oooh oooh. I can play that game too! Read my other posts. I have definitively shown that it is extremely unlikely for two advanced civilizations to exist at the same time, even less likely for them to find each other when separated by tens of lightyears, probably separated by thousands of lightyears, and the laws of physics mean they would have had to leave for Earth long before the rise of agriculture. Considering that we have been sending radio transmissions for a bit more than 100 years there is no way another civilization could have found us and visited. If you believe some spacefaring civilization ran across us by change then you…

Oh wait. You just said you do not claim alien spacecraft are visiting our planet. So we’re arguing over something you saw 30 years ago but cannot verify? I have better things to do.

And if you (or anyone else) feels moved to reply, please don’t cherrypick. Answer all my points, not just the easy ones.

All your points are easy, you just refuse to believe in reality.

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Posted: 19 March 2012 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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Seems to me that any technological culture which would be capable of solving the problems which would have to be solved to make intersteller spaceflight practical and worthwhile would also be so advanced that they wouldn’t care if we noticed them and would have as much reason to try and talk to us as we would have to strike up a conversation with an amoeaba.

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Posted: 19 March 2012 07:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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I think we’re on shaky ground when we start speculating about the motives of a technological culture that may or may not be centuries more advanced than we are.  We just don’t know what their philosophy might be like.

There are just SO MANY reports of flying saucers all the time, it just seems incredible to me that Earth would be such a busy interstellar crossroad without somebody trying to make contact.  It seems much more reasonable to me that these things are fairly ordinary objects seen under extraordinary conditions.

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Posted: 19 March 2012 07:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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I think we’re on shaky ground when we start speculating about the motives of a technological culture that may or may not be centuries more advanced than we are.  We just don’t know what their philosophy might be like.

You may be right.

There are just SO MANY reports of flying saucers all the time, it just seems incredible to me that Earth would be such a busy interstellar crossroad without somebody trying to make contact.

That may also have some merit. By the same token, they may also dismiss us as unworthwhile for the same reasons we dismiss a colony of ants as unworthwhile…ecept perhaps to exterminate if they start to become a bother or if it’s in the way of some sort of building project.

It seems much more reasonable to me that these things are fairly ordinary objects seen under extraordinary conditions.

There can be that. More often then not, it’s people who think they know what they’re looking at…but don’t.

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Posted: 19 March 2012 01:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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dougsmith - 19 March 2012 04:20 AM

FWIW it doesn’t matter how sure you are. Memory is just not a credible enough witness to provide the “extraordinary evidence” for something that occurred over thirty years ago.

Heck, memory is not a ‘credible witness’ immediately after the occurrence….our brains are too easily fooled!

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