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‘Reality’, it’s not what you think it is.
Posted: 16 January 2011 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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asanta - 16 January 2011 01:56 AM
Theflyingsorcerer - 16 January 2011 01:53 AM

THERE IS PROBABLY NO GOD, BUT OTHER LEVELS OF “REALITY” EXIST.
Theflyingsorcerer.

Your proof is….? grin

No proof. Just anecdotal evidence, Which, as we all know, is “notoriously unreliable.”

Sorry, I should have written “other levels of reality MIGHT exist.”

Theflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 16 January 2011 03:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 16 January 2011 03:27 PM
Write4U - 16 January 2011 02:59 PM

But how you can come from “other levels of reality” to “inspired by god” is indeed confusing to me.

That’s because I DON’T come from “other levels of reality” to “inspired by god”. I don’t come to “inspired by god” at all. I don’t believe in god, I don’t need god. I SUSPECT that there MAY be other levels of reality - none of which have anything to do with god. That’s all.

So where’s the confusion?

Theflyingsorcerer.

Your example of Beethoven as being divinely inspired.

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Posted: 16 January 2011 10:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Now where, precisely, did I say that Beethoven was divinely inspired? If you read my post CAREFULLY, you’ll see that I never said any such thing. I said, if you listen to Ludwig’s 9th on stereo headphones, you’ll begin to understand that there are levels of reality unknown to physics. The 9th will take you there, IF YOU LET IT.

C’mon, you guys; you’re supposed to be BRIGHTS.

Theflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 16 January 2011 11:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 16 January 2011 10:08 PM

Now where, precisely, did I say that Beethoven was divinely inspired? If you read my post CAREFULLY, you’ll see that I never said any such thing. I said, if you listen to Ludwig’s 9th on stereo headphones, you’ll begin to understand that there are levels of reality unknown to physics. The 9th will take you there, IF YOU LET IT.

C’mon, you guys; you’re supposed to be BRIGHTS.

Theflyingsorcerer.

I have been “transported” to Beethoven’s 9th level (listening that is).... smile
I also agree that there may well be a metaphysical condition. But perhaps you do underestimate the capability of the human mind to transcend the mundane. Elsewhere I posited that the we have godlike powers, capable of greatness in creativity as well as destructiveness, yet we remain wihin this reality which provides us with the inspiration for such beauty or horror.
btw. it took Beethoven many years to write, rewrite and compile passages from earlier works (even ideas from works by other composers). This was long hard work, with many discarded or modified passages, all the more impressive in view of his deafness. But he heard the music internally and his deep understanding of music structure still allowed him to translate his thoughts into musical notation.
As to “levels of reality unknown to physics”, all human thought (the mind) is a non-physical creation of the brain and thus beyond physics. But the process of thinking itself is indeed physical.
question: does smoking a jay or taking LSD give us ability to transcend reality or do they open neural pathways in the brain which allow us to experience reality in a different way?
I submit there are as many subjective levels of reality as there are thinking people. But only one objective reality, preceded by a metaphysical causal inevitability.

[ Edited: 16 January 2011 11:58 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 17 January 2011 03:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 16 January 2011 10:08 PM

Now where, precisely, did I say that Beethoven was divinely inspired? If you read my post CAREFULLY, you’ll see that I never said any such thing. I said, if you listen to Ludwig’s 9th on stereo headphones, you’ll begin to understand that there are levels of reality unknown to physics. The 9th will take you there, IF YOU LET IT.

C’mon, you guys; you’re supposed to be BRIGHTS.

Theflyingsorcerer.

I’m BRIGHT enough to know that listening to a symphony (masterpiece or not) has nothing to do with “levels of reality unknown to physics”. I’m also BRIGHT enough to recognize hyperbole.

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Posted: 17 January 2011 07:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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I’m with Asanta.  I can listen to Mozart or Beethoven and be in awe at the beauty of their music, but that has nothing to do with “levels of reality”.  Just because we have emotions has no relation to physics.  Similarly I get strong emotions when something really micturates me off, and the hyper-egotistical Mensa word, “Brights” is one of the things that causes me to feel rather nauseated.

Occam

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Posted: 18 January 2011 03:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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I’ve always had difficulty understanding why so many feel the need to equate some emotional experience with something other than an emotional experience.

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Posted: 18 January 2011 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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Only classical examples!?  What no transcendence in the Blues?  Perhaps we should catch up to the times.  With electronic systems you no longer need a 100 piece orchestra to provide enough volume for a large audience, as Mozart, Beethoven, etc. found necessary.  cool grin Last evening we even had electronic drums.

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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 18 January 2011 04:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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garythehuman - 18 January 2011 03:19 PM

Only classical examples!?  What no transcendence in the Blues?  Perhaps we should catch up to the times.  With electronic systems you no longer need a 100 piece orchestra to provide enough volume for a large audience, as Mozart, Beethoven, etc. found necessary.  cool grin Last evening we even had electronic drums.

One might say you entered the reality of electronic music… cheese
I do believe that certain soundwaves or combinations (arrangement) of soundwaves can produce a sympathetic resonance which may be pleasant (symphony/consonance) or have resonances which produce discomfort (cacaphony/dissonance).

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Posted: 18 January 2011 07:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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Hey, there’s plenty of chamber music for trios and quartets - it doesn’t have to be a 100 piece orchestra.  I find modern music, popular, electronic and even “classical” jarring and turn it off as quickly as I can get to the radio because, to me, as W4U said, they produce discomfort (cacaphony/dissonance).

Occam

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Posted: 18 January 2011 08:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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Occam. - 18 January 2011 07:30 PM

Hey, there’s plenty of chamber music for trios and quartets - it doesn’t have to be a 100 piece orchestra.  I find modern music, popular, electronic and even “classical” jarring and turn it off as quickly as I can get to the radio because, to me, as W4U said, they produce discomfort (cacaphony/dissonance).

Occam

You need to listen to “The Lovers” by Les McMann. Maybe the best jazz tune of all time, and definitely under-appreciated.

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Posted: 18 January 2011 09:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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DarronS - 18 January 2011 08:22 PM
Occam. - 18 January 2011 07:30 PM

Hey, there’s plenty of chamber music for trios and quartets - it doesn’t have to be a 100 piece orchestra.  I find modern music, popular, electronic and even “classical” jarring and turn it off as quickly as I can get to the radio because, to me, as W4U said, they produce discomfort (cacaphony/dissonance).

Occam

You need to listen to “The Lovers” by Les McMann. Maybe the best jazz tune of all time, and definitely under-appreciated.

The original recording of Django by the Modern Jazz Quartet is one of my all time favorite jazz compositions and performances. The piano solo by John Lewis (composer) is an example of “transcendent clarity and beauty”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z88Vc1oyvU

interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30RrATHPVtk&feature=fvwrel

[ Edited: 18 January 2011 10:31 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 18 January 2011 11:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Adam Reclaims - 17 August 2010 11:41 PM

OK, let’s try a different tact.  And please this time, let’s demonstrate some mutual respect.  It doesn’t matter what you call yourself, we’re all ‘created equal’ and all deserve the same respect, at least so says the US constitution - and I’m not even American!

I’ve been hearing quite a bit about ‘realism’ and the ‘real world’ from different members of CFI.  Just to analyze this for a moment… Nobody has a corner on the market of ‘reality’, things are as they are.  Here are the levels:

First there is what is.

Second, there is your experience or perception of it.

Third there is your conceptualization of it.

If you think your conceptualization of ‘reality’, is reality, you are hallucinating.  Your conceptualization, your ‘science’ is twice removed from ‘what is’.  So please, don’t talk or act like your version or conceptualization of ‘reality’, is what is - it is not.  What is, is not reduceable to a concept or idea.  If you say that as an ‘atheist’, you see the world ‘as it is’, you are kidding yourself.  In fact, as soon as you say that you know ‘reality’, you define some religion, all there is left to do is give it a name.

This reminded me of a discussion I had in another forum years ago. I took exception to someone who kept calling an altered state, that someone who had had a psychotic break experienced for example, their “reality”. I didn’t like it because I think it did a disservice to the real life effects that such a condition exacts on such a person, and because such a state might well incorporate aspects of reality, but not in a usable way. Their perception may or may not have anything to do with reality. It’s not their reality, it’s their mental illness.

However, the real life effects of having such a mental condition, of being a psychiatric patient, of being medicated, of lowered economic prospects, social stigma, and a lack of personal security, those *will* have a legitimate effect on their perception and conceptualisation of reality. So, in that regard, it is their reality, but none of that changes the actual physical world that they share with others. Each of us has experiences that qualify how we view society and our place in it, but do not change how the Universe operates, the physical laws on Earth. For the psychiatric patient, single mothers in Bolivia, and the Koch brothers, all those objective realities are shared. That is why the differences between these experiences are measured by subjective sciences and not by objective sciences.

For a further personal example, I once stole a cactus while I was on acid by sticking it up my shirt. Although my altered state made it seem that sticking a cactus up my shirt was a perfectly reasonable thing to do, the reality that the cactus was prickly did not change and it hurt.

 

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“I take a simple view of life. It is keep your eyes open and get on with it.”

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Posted: 19 January 2011 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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Occam. - 18 January 2011 07:30 PM

Hey, there’s plenty of chamber music for trios and quartets - it doesn’t have to be a 100 piece orchestra.  I find modern music, popular, electronic and even “classical” jarring and turn it off as quickly as I can get to the radio because, to me, as W4U said, they produce discomfort (cacaphony/dissonance).

Occam

i like the blues, among other reasons, because it is basically folk music that often tells stories of everyday life.

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Posted: 19 January 2011 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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1. Adam Reclaims – It’s the Declaration of Independence, not the U.S. Constitution that declares, “all men are created equal”.  Nothing about respect, however.

If you think your conceptualization of ‘reality’, is reality, you are hallucinating. Your conceptualization, your ‘science’ is twice removed from ‘what is’. So please, don’t talk or act like your version or conceptualization of ‘reality’, is what is - it is not. What is, is not reduceable to a concept or idea. If you say that as an ‘atheist’, you see the world ‘as it is’, you are kidding yourself. In fact, as soon as you say that you know ‘reality’, you define some religion, all there is left to do is give it a name.

  Sorry, but I see this as semantic nitpicking.  While we recognize a difference between our conceptions and “reality”, they are constantly self-correcting by the results of our behavior.  And, if we hope to relate to others, we have to have a high degree of mutual agreement as to reality.  I believe most of us here recognize the inherent lack of precision of our views.

2. B’s Mom – I agree.  There’s a wide difference between the self-correcting (albeit with minor imprecisions) view of reality, and those ideas caused by some sorts of hallucination that are far removed from reality in manners that can be severely destructive or are recognized by the vast majority of people as quite incorrect.

3. Darron and Garythehuman—I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with jazz and blues.  In fact, some of my best friends like jazz or blues, smile and that’s fine for them.  I just can’t take that kind of “music” for myself.

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