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Future of Humanism
Posted: 12 September 2010 06:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Jackson - 12 September 2010 03:30 PM
PLaClair - 12 September 2010 05:27 AM

.....
No doubt, some people don’t see religion as an individual matter. Probably that is the majority view among authoritarian religions. Why the hell - pardon me but hearing this from our own ranks makes me crazy - are we promoting the authoritarian view?
...

Just because there is a Humanist Manifesto doesn’t mean its a religion…

Where are you pulling that from? I didn’t say anything about any of the Humanist Manifestos. The subject did not even occur to me.

And what has it to do with the comment you quoted?

[ Edited: 05 November 2010 10:46 AM by PLaClair ]
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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 14 September 2010 02:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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PLaClair - 12 September 2010 06:29 PM
Jackson - 12 September 2010 03:30 PM
PLaClair - 12 September 2010 05:27 AM

.....
No doubt, some people don’t see religion as an individual matter. Probably that is the majority view among authoritarian religions. Why the hell - pardon me but hearing this from our own ranks makes me crazy - are we promoting the authoritarian view?
...

Just because there is a Humanist Manifesto doesn’t mean its a religion…

And what has it to do with the comment you quoted?

To paraphrase your statement, and make my point clearer, I see ‘humanism’ as an individual matter, and I question the ‘authoritarian’ idea of organizing humanism as a ‘religion’ or with these curious manifestos (let’s drop that discussion)

In what sense do you think humanism is like a religion, and are there any senses where you would agree that it’s not really like a religion the way most people think of it?

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Posted: 14 September 2010 05:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Jackson - 14 September 2010 02:43 AM
PLaClair - 12 September 2010 06:29 PM
Jackson - 12 September 2010 03:30 PM
PLaClair - 12 September 2010 05:27 AM

.....
No doubt, some people don’t see religion as an individual matter. Probably that is the majority view among authoritarian religions. Why the hell - pardon me but hearing this from our own ranks makes me crazy - are we promoting the authoritarian view?
...

Just because there is a Humanist Manifesto doesn’t mean its a religion…

And what has it to do with the comment you quoted?

To paraphrase your statement, and make my point clearer, I see ‘humanism’ as an individual matter, and I question the ‘authoritarian’ idea of organizing humanism as a ‘religion’ or with these curious manifestos (let’s drop that discussion)

In what sense do you think humanism is like a religion, and are there any senses where you would agree that it’s not really like a religion the way most people think of it?

As you just expressed, it is a matter of individual choice. It is not for me to tell you what humanism means to you, including whether it is or is not a religion for you.

On the other hand, if we hope to be part of a functioning and effective movement, we will have to band together and give up bits of our individualism. There is a clearly identifiable strain in Humanist organizations, often expressed by the analogy of trying to herd cats. We have a choice. We can continue in this vein and be powerless or we can look for ways to become members of a functioning group. Each individual will decide how much his individualism matters versus how much the group matters. If you see any organization as authoritarian, then that is how you see it; but seeing it that way will make it harder for our organizations to function and gain any significant footing in society. How you see things is an individual matter but the consequences of that world view is not an individual matter: the consequences will be dictated mainly by forces outside you. For my money, social acceptance of Humanism is worth giving up enough of my individualism to be a part of a functioning group. If you don’t see it that way, that’s your choice; but the consequences are not your choice, so to me, the question is “which aspect of your individualism do you value most.” Because like it or not, you can’t have them all. It’s an unhappy reality but it’s true.

This does not mean that you must see humanism as a religion. But it does mean that you must accept that some of us do see Humanism as a religion. If you do not accept that, just as I must accept your approach to the subject of religion, then our organizations can never attain their potential.

[ Edited: 14 September 2010 05:34 AM by PLaClair ]
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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 14 September 2010 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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PLaClair - 14 September 2010 05:26 AM

This does not mean that you must see humanism as a religion. But it does mean that you must accept that some of us do see Humanism as a religion. If you do not accept that, just as I must accept your approach to the subject of religion, then our organizations can never attain their potential.

I’m pretty happy with that. Thanks.

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Posted: 21 September 2010 11:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Religion, Humanism, beliefs, ethics, morals should be a personal choice.

If one freely chooses to accept the authority of a religion they should be able to. No one should tell them they can’t.

I don’t care what people believe, I may think the belief itself is dumb, but I don’t care that someone else believes it. I don’t think it is my job to tell others what they should believe or what their ethics or morals should be. I only care about their actions. It’s their actions I have to deal with. I don’t have to deal with what they believe.

One can always offer their personal beliefs however IMO one should never expect their beliefs to be accepted by anyone else.

Problem is political clout requires a unity of belief. That usually means acceptance of authority or luck. Religion works well as a political model. Individualism doesn’t.

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Posted: 21 September 2010 11:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Gnostikosis - 21 September 2010 11:34 AM

Religion, Humanism, beliefs, ethics, morals should be a personal choice.

If one freely chooses to accept the authority of a religion they should be able to. No one should tell them they can’t.

What if it is your personal belief that you should tell them that they should not accept the authority of a religion.  wink Or should we follow your personal beliefs which obviously exclude the personal beliefs of others?

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Posted: 21 September 2010 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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George - 21 September 2010 11:47 AM
Gnostikosis - 21 September 2010 11:34 AM

Religion, Humanism, beliefs, ethics, morals should be a personal choice.

If one freely chooses to accept the authority of a religion they should be able to. No one should tell them they can’t.

What if it is your personal belief that you should tell them that they should not accept the authority of a religion.  wink Or should we follow your personal beliefs which obviously exclude the personal beliefs of others?

It doesn’t matter what I believe IMO. It matters how I act. However I act, someone else will have to deal with it and we’ll all have to live with any consequences. What I believe doesn’t or shouldn’t concern you. What I do does.

I could believe you, or anyone, is a complete a-hole. If I treat you as fairly as anyone else what does it matter?

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Posted: 21 September 2010 01:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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I don’t know. I get lost with all these “should” and “shouldn’t.”

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Posted: 21 September 2010 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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George - 21 September 2010 01:32 PM

I don’t know. I get lost with all these “should” and “shouldn’t.”

Depends on whether you recognize what does and doesn’t affect you. If something doesn’t really affect you why “should” you worry about it?

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Posted: 21 September 2010 02:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Gnostikosis - 21 September 2010 11:34 AM

If one freely chooses to accept the authority of a religion they should be able to. No one should tell them they can’t.

How about telling thing them they shouldn’t. They obviously can if they want to.

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Posted: 21 September 2010 06:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Gnostikosis - 21 September 2010 02:20 PM
George - 21 September 2010 01:32 PM

I don’t know. I get lost with all these “should” and “shouldn’t.”

Depends on whether you recognize what does and doesn’t affect you. If something doesn’t really affect you why “should” you worry about it?

Animals being slaughtered affects me, because it makes me sad. Ergo, everybody should be a vegetarian. People enjoying action movies affects me, because Hollywood doesn’t need to make movies I like. Ergo, they should stop making action movies. Like that?

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Posted: 21 September 2010 07:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Gnostikosis - 21 September 2010 02:20 PM
George - 21 September 2010 01:32 PM

I don’t know. I get lost with all these “should” and “shouldn’t.”

Depends on whether you recognize what does and doesn’t affect you. If something doesn’t really affect you why “should” you worry about it?

It’s kind of hard to generalize—it depends on the “what”.  There must be examples which are obvious, and other which are gray areas. We can agree this is more gray than some and less grey than others.

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Posted: 22 September 2010 04:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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George - 21 September 2010 06:33 PM
Gnostikosis - 21 September 2010 02:20 PM
George - 21 September 2010 01:32 PM

I don’t know. I get lost with all these “should” and “shouldn’t.”

Depends on whether you recognize what does and doesn’t affect you. If something doesn’t really affect you why “should” you worry about it?

Animals being slaughtered affects me, because it makes me sad. Ergo, everybody should be a vegetarian. People enjoying action movies affects me, because Hollywood doesn’t need to make movies I like. Ergo, they should stop making action movies. Like that?

Your talking about things which affect you. How does that apply to what I said?

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Posted: 22 September 2010 05:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Jackson - 21 September 2010 07:52 PM
Gnostikosis - 21 September 2010 02:20 PM
George - 21 September 2010 01:32 PM

I don’t know. I get lost with all these “should” and “shouldn’t.”

Depends on whether you recognize what does and doesn’t affect you. If something doesn’t really affect you why “should” you worry about it?

It’s kind of hard to generalize—it depends on the “what”.  There must be examples which are obvious, and other which are gray areas. We can agree this is more gray than some and less grey than others.

Ok, if I believe marrage can only be between a man and a women and the state passes a law which allows same-sex marriage. I further believe that God will punish us for allowing same-sex marriage don’t you think it’s likely I’ll worry about it?

Lets say I have the same belief about marriage only being between a man and a women, however I recognize Steve and Tim next door getting married doesn’t affect me at all, should I worry about the state passing such a law? 

The “what” depends on you. Also remember I am referring to beliefs not actions. Say I believe the moon is made out of cheese. Should you be concerned about my belief? If so, why?

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Posted: 22 September 2010 04:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Gnostikosis - 22 September 2010 05:31 AM

Ok, if I believe marrage can only be between a man and a women and the state passes a law which allows same-sex marriage. I further believe that God will punish us for allowing same-sex marriage don’t you think it’s likely I’ll worry about it?

Then I can justify my belief that a woman can only be educated to the point of literacy, say 6th grade. And that they must be married before their first menses, and that the father has complete control over who his daughter marries to the point of making it legal for him to kill her for not obeying his wishes.  Furthermore, she may not drive, nor can she leave the home unless accompanied by an adult (over the age of 13) related male. And she can be killed for talking to an unrelated male. Her testimony is no accepted in court against a male, unless she has 10 witnesses. My god insists on this and will punish the world if these laws are not followed.

And this is not even the worst of the religions out there. On cult leader made it mandatory that all girls sleep with him, including his own daughters. Another wouldn’t let the children eat. Another starved a toddler because he could not say ‘amen’.

What is the difference. Where do we stop.

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Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

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