Hi GdB,

The god of the bible is Yahweh, the former war god of the Jews.

You’re right Yahweh is the God of the Bible but He’s not the former God of the Jews.  He’s the same God of the Old and New Testaments and the same God today.  And he’s not the war God.

That’s why he suggest the Jews to kill all enemies: men, women and children.

I’m guessing you’re reffering to when the jews entered the promise land and were instructed to wipe out all inhabitants.  Keep in mind this was judgement on the people of those lands.  They could of turned to God.  The people in those cities knew about the jews being in the wilderness for 40 years and how God miraculously brought them out of Egypt.  Rahab the Harlot told them that when spies were sent to Jericho.  And Rahab is evidence of the mercy God would of had on any of them that turned to him.  Since she did turn to God and her and her household were spared when Jericho was attacked.

take care,
Keith

KeithP - 07 December 2010 03:40 PM

Hi GdB,

 

The god of the bible is Yahweh, the former war god of the Jews.

You’re right Yahweh is the God of the Bible but He’s not the former God of the Jews.  He’s the same God of the Old and New Testaments and the same God today.  And he’s not the war God.

That’s why he suggest the Jews to kill all enemies: men, women and children.

I’m guessing you’re reffering to when the jews entered the promise land and were instructed to wipe out all inhabitants.  Keep in mind this was judgement on the people of those lands.  They could of turned to God.  The people in those cities knew about the jews being in the wilderness for 40 years and how God miraculously brought them out of Egypt.  Rahab the Harlot told them that when spies were sent to Jericho.  And Rahab is evidence of the mercy God would of had on any of them that turned to him.  Since she did turn to God and her and her household were spared when Jericho was attacked.

take care,
Keith

And how were these people instructed to wipe out all inhabitants because they were not of God? A voice that whispers in your ears? Sounds perfectly warlike, even devilish to me.
And here we come to the Taliban. If you don’t turn to Allah, you must die!  Does changing the word Allah to the word God make it right?

And as we are now on the subject of religion, I’ll repeat the as yet unanswered question. What is God’s motive for all of this?

Hello Write4U,

And how were these people instructed to wipe out all inhabitants because they were not of God? A voice that whispers in your ears? Sounds perfectly warlike, even devilish to me

You can read at the beginning of the book of Joshua that God spake to Joshua and instructed him on what to do.  If you want further proof it was of God note the miracle of the walls of Jericho coming down. They were instructed to march around the city seven times and then blow their trumpets.  Certainly it wasn’t the trumpets that knocked those walls down.

And here we come to the Taliban. If you don’t turn to Allah, you must die!  Does changing the word Allah to the word God make it right?

There were certain times in history in which God brought judgment on certain people groups, or cities, or all of mankind in the case of the flood.  But each time God allowed for plenty of time for people to turn from their sin and turn to God.  And sometimes the people did turn from their sin and turn to God.  In the case of Niniveh when God sent Jonah to warn the people that judgment was coming they heeded his warning and turn to God.  And God had mercy on them and didn’t bring judgment.

Now here’s the difference between Islam and Christianity.  Islam which follows Muhammed was spread through the sword.  The idea of the religion is convert or be killed.  And any forced conversion is not a true conversion.  Christianity follows the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.  Jesus had a simple commission that he gave his disciples.  This is to spread the gospel and make disciples of them.  The Gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ came and died on the Cross for our sins.  And we’re now offered the free gift of salvation through the acceptence of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  This was done because of Gods love towards us.  Rather than just destroying us he provided a way for us to be reconciled to him and be completely pardoned of our sins.

Now why would one trust Jesus over some other religious leader?  Because Jesus could do what no other man could do.  He not only made the claim that he was God and the savior of the world, he also backed it up.  Jesus had command over the laws of physics and nature.  He walked on water, he calmed a storm by speaking, he multiplied a few fish and loaves of bread to feed thousands.  Jesus could heal people.  He gave sight to the blind, he healed the lame and the sick.  And Jesus had power over life itself.  He raised up Lazarus and others and ultimately he himself came out of the grave.

And as we are now on the subject of religion, I’ll repeat the as yet unanswered question. What is God’s motive for all of this

For this one I think you’ll need to qualify what you mean by all of this.  Are you talking about life in general or are you talking about why God brought Judgment on the people of those lands?

take care,
Keith

KeithP - 13 December 2010 04:34 PM

Hello Write4U,

And how were these people instructed to wipe out all inhabitants because they were not of God? A voice that whispers in your ears? Sounds perfectly warlike, even devilish to me

You can read at the beginning of the book of Joshua that God spake to Joshua and instructed him on what to do.  If you want further proof it was of God note the miracle of the walls of Jericho coming down. They were instructed to march around the city seven times and then blow their trumpets.  Certainly it wasn’t the trumpets that knocked those walls down.

No, the march seven times around the walls dug a hole soo deep that all the walls fell down.

And here we come to the Taliban. If you don’t turn to Allah, you must die!  Does changing the word Allah to the word God make it right?

And God had mercy on them and didn’t bring judgment.

You mean “they were left alive by the thugs who raped and pillaged and razed a city in the name of god”

Now here’s the difference between Islam and Christianity.  Islam which follows Muhammed was spread through the sword.  The idea of the religion is convert or be killed.  And any forced conversion is not a true conversion.  Christianity follows the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.  Jesus had a simple commission that he gave his disciples.  This is to spread the gospel and make disciples of them.  The Gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ came and died on the Cross for our sins.  And we’re now offered the free gift of salvation through the acceptence of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  This was done because of Gods love towards us.  Rather than just destroying us he provided a way for us to be reconciled to him and be completely pardoned of our sins.

You just made the case that the people of Jericho had to die because they refused to be converted (forced conversion).

And as we are now on the subject of religion, I’ll repeat the as yet unanswered question. What is God’s motive for all of this

For this one I think you’ll need to qualify what you mean by all of this.  Are you talking about life in general or are you talking about why God brought Judgment on the people of those lands?

No, I am asking what god’s motive was for creating the universe, the earth, life, man.
What is God’s purpose? So that we can worship Him?
“If that’s all there is, then let’s keep dancing”

Write4U,

No, the march seven times around the walls dug a hole soo deep that all the walls fell down.

I’m being honest when I ask you this.  Are you being sarcastic or are you serious?

You mean “they were left alive by the thugs who raped and pillaged and razed a city in the name of god”

I’m not sure which part of Ninivehs history you’re refering to.  But when Jonah warned them and they turned to God they were spared from judgment.

You just made the case that the people of Jericho had to die because they refused to be converted (forced conversion).

When God brought judgment on people at various times it was because of their sins.  And God always gave plenty of warning ahead of time for people to repent and turn to him.  In the case of the Flood it took Noah 100 years to build the ark.  People had all of that time to turn to God.  In the case of Jericho and the other cities that were to be judged in that land they had 40 years.  There are other examples I could cite.  Bottom line is God chooses to be merciful and gracious to those who repent and turn to him.  It’s within his power to bring judgment without warning.

God is not interested in a forced conversion.  God wants us to love him as he loves us.  But true love is only by choice.  What brings God judgment and wrath is our sin.  God being a holy and righteous God will not let sin go without being judged.  But we are living in a different day and age than the people of the old testament.  We’re living in the age of Grace.  Jesus Christ fullfilled the law of Moses and became the once for all sacrifice for sin on the cross.  We’re now able to be saved simply by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  God has given salvation as a free gift to all who will accept it.

No, I am asking what god’s motive was for creating the universe, the earth, life, man.
What is God’s purpose? So that we can worship Him?
“If that’s all there is, then let’s keep dancing”

I touched on this a little.  God loves us and certainly wants us to love him in return.  But ultimately everything was made for the Glory of God.  Every person has the potential to bring Glory and Honor to God.  Our deeds unfortunately often do not.  But once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, God begins a work in that persons life.  He changes them and they now have that potential to bring Glory to God.  But also keep in mind our time down here on Earth is not all there is.  What God has in store for those who receive his salvation is much more than what we can fathom.

take care,
Keith

KeithP - 16 December 2010 07:52 PM

Write4U,
No, the march seven times around the walls dug a hole soo deep that all the walls fell down.

I’m being honest when I ask you this.  Are you being sarcastic or are you serious?

Battering rams and grappling hooks for bringing down fortifications had been used for centuries. No reason to believe that there was any need for miracles.
I am dismayed at the myth of Jericho walls miraculously tumbling down.

You mean “they were left alive by the thugs who raped and pillaged and razed a city in the name of god”

I’m not sure which part of Ninivehs history you’re refering to.  But when Jonah warned them and they turned to God they were spared from judgment.

I am talking about all people (millions of them) in cities, villages, homes, families, who throughout the ages died by the “sword of god” (god’s judgement) wielded by holy terrorists, regardless of their beliefs or morality. “In the name of god you must die” is always the cry.
You seem to be a very civilized person and I am sure it is not your intention, but words like that might have been spoken by a terrorist who thanks Allah for bringing down the Two Towers of Power and Greed in the land of the infidel. How this is done is always miraculous until you experience 911 (God’s most recent miracle in the eyes of many). Then God’s work (carried out by humans) becomes less than admirable and glorious.

You just made the case that the people of Jericho had to die because they refused to be converted (forced conversion).

When God brought judgment on people at various times it was because of their sins. God is not interested in a forced conversion.  God wants us to love him as he loves us.  But true love is only by choice.  What brings God judgment and wrath is our sin.  God being a holy and righteous God will not let sin go without being judged.  But we are living in a different day and age than the people of the old testament.

No we don’t. You just admitted that god’s wrath is ever present to sinners. But it is always humans (sinners themselves) who carry out His holy work by murdering fellow humans (sinners). If ever a miracle was called for, this would be a good time for God to create a true (unassisted by man) miracle. It would go viral on the internet instantly. 

No, I am asking what god’s motive was for creating the universe, the earth, life, man.
What is God’s purpose? So that we can worship Him?
“If that’s all there is, then let’s keep dancing”

What God has in store for those who receive his salvation is much more than what we can fathom.

Or nothing. “Dust to Dust” (but still part of the universe in all its glory)...

p.s. fractals are truly miraculous. Without any intelligence, fractals can form the most divine beauty and are the only possible way to measure the universe and life mathematically (limited to computing power and memory). But it is an infinite metaphysical mathematical process (geography) without intentional intelligence. It mimics god’s creation perfectly by its iterational and evolutionary functions. It is almost magical.
http://www.h-schmidt.net/MandelApplet/mandelapplet.html
http://www.miqel.com/fractals_math_patterns/visual-math-natural-fractals.html

fractal ... _/\_ Reminiscent of a single celled organism which learned to attach itself, then learned to duplicate itself in an infinite variety of expression).

to the physics and math students:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~loll/Web/research/research.html

Write4U,

Battering rams and grappling hooks for bringing down fortifications had been used for centuries. No reason to believe that there was any need for miracles.
I am dismayed at the myth of Jericho walls miraculously tumbling down.

I did a little research on the battering ram and grappling hooks.  The battering ram was invented by the Assyrians and I found nothing to suggest they date back any further than the 5th century B.C.  The grappling hook was invented by the Romans in the 3rd century B.C.  But also there is no historical accounts to suggest that either were used in the siege of Jericho.  There have however been several excavations of the Jericho site and the evidence of those Excavations point to the accuracy of the Biblical account.  Not only evidence that the walls came down but also that the city was burned.  And one section of the wall remained standing.  And the Biblical account says that Rehab the the Harlots house was built into the wall and that her house was spared.  So the one section remaining standing lines up with that as well.

I am talking about all people (millions of them) in cities, villages, homes, families, who throughout the ages died by the “sword of god” (god’s judgement) wielded by holy terrorists, regardless of their beliefs or morality. “In the name of god you must die” is always the cry.
You seem to be a very civilized person and I am sure it is not your intention, but words like that might have been spoken by a terrorist who thanks Allah for bringing down the Two Towers of Power and Greed in the land of the infidel. How this is done is always miraculous until you experience 911 (God’s most recent miracle in the eyes of many). Then God’s work (carried out by humans) becomes less than admirable and glorious.

Actually most of the time as recorded in the Bible when God brought Judgment he brought it directly.  In the case of The Worldwide Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Egypt during the time of Moses, and Niniveh likely would of been directly from God.  There were only certain times when God working only through the Israelites brought judgment through people.

From your perspective I understand you see no difference between Islam and Christianity and Christianities roots which are in Judaism.  But I submit to you Christianity passes the tests of scrutiny and holds to be truth.  Islam does not making it a false religion and an invention of man or of evil spirits.  The actions of Islam do not Glorify God regardless of what they claim.

No we don’t. You just admitted that god’s wrath is ever present to sinners. But it is always humans (sinners themselves) who carry out His holy work by murdering fellow humans (sinners). If ever a miracle was called for, this would be a good time for God to create a true (unassisted by man) miracle. It would go viral on the internet instantly.

To sum up what I brought up before God more often than not brought Judgment directly in the Biblical record.  The only times it was brought through people according to the Biblical record was through the Israelites at times.  But again the actions of Islam and other false religions do not represent God.  Since the time of Christ, Gods people, those who have accepted Christ as Savior have been commissioned to spread the Gospel.  We haven’t been commissioned to bring Gods wrath only the good news.  Anyone out there killing in the name of their religion is not representing God and that includes anyone who claims to be a Christian.

p.s. fractals are truly miraculous. Without any intelligence, fractals can form the most divine beauty and are the only possible way to measure the universe and life mathematically (limited to computing power and memory). But it is an infinite metaphysical mathematical process (geography) without intentional intelligence. It mimics god’s creation perfectly by its iterational and evolutionary functions. It is almost magical

You say it’s without intelligence but I’d say it’s only further evidence of intelligent.  With natural fractals you have an infinitely reoccuring pattern going right down to the microscopic level.  I’d argue this only lends further evidence that everything has a design and therefore a designer.  God is an amazing mathematician.

take care,
Keith

Write4U - 17 December 2010 02:04 PM

to the physics and math students:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~loll/Web/research/research.html

Thank you for the link. This is a good paper, which of course means in part that I found nothing much to criticize.

—
Michael J. Burns

Hi Everyone,

  I just wanted to let everyone know that although I certainly don’t mind continuing the debate in this public forum.  I’m also willing to have a one on one conversation with anyone who had some comments or questions for me.  Just send me an E-mail to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).  Also I hope you all had a Merry Christmas and a wonderful New Year.

take care,
Keith