Islam
Posted: 20 August 2006 06:24 AM   [ Ignore ]
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[color=gray:376f209f72]Hello every one. I’m just curious to way so many are talking without understanding Islam or the little they know of it?[/color:376f209f72]

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Posted: 20 August 2006 08:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Re: Islam

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”]Hello every one. I’m just curious to way so many are talking without understanding Islam or the little they know of it?

Very good, Salah. I am glad you are here, to have a different voice. Please do let us know where we get Islam’s beliefs wrong.

Peace.

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Posted: 30 August 2006 05:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Thanks Doug. Just ask any questions or you can join the following sites to get a wide variety of information on Islam:


http://www.myislamweb.com
http://www.s9.invisionfree.com/Love_For_Allah
http://www.religionsonline.info

If you’d like free Islamic literature or to visit a Mosque, I can help with that also.

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Posted: 30 August 2006 05:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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[quote author=“Salah ad-din”]Thanks Doug. Just ask any questions or you can join the following sites to get a wide variety of information on Islam:


http://www.myislamweb.com
http://www.s9.invisionfree.com/Love_For_Allah
http://www.religionsonline.info

If you’d like free Islamic literature or to visit a Mosque, I can help with that also.

Fair enough, but I don’t expect that many of us are looking to convert, or to be proselytized to. We’re well beyond that. However, I am certainly interested in when we get things factually wrong.

The question for Islam, as with any religion, is why we should take these so-called holy books seriously. What is the evidence that anything they contain is true? There are many ancient books of story and myth in the world, from the Iliad and Odyssey in Greece, to the Mahabharata in India, to the Popol Vuh in Mexico, and on and on. What they contain are myths, fantastic stories, fun tales, but honestly none of us believe any of it is actually true.

The Bible and Koran fit into this same category, or so it would seem.

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Posted: 01 September 2006 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Muslims do not convert people or try to revert people. All we are permitted to do is spread the message. It’s up to God to make that person seewhat we beleive is true. In a time where Islam is being misunderstood, Muslims feels the need to do this mission even harder.

There are many people who are not Muslims that’s on the forums that I listed. They aren’t thinking about becoming a Muslim or anything, they are just there to clear their minds of misconception.

In order to question why should you take these Holy Books so seriously, you’d have to do deep studying of it’s origins.

Like you said: So it would seem, which brings me to the conclusion that you really do not know. So the question is now - Why don’t you know? My answer to this is lack of research. What is yours?

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Posted: 01 September 2006 04:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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[quote author=“Salah ad-din”]Muslims do not convert people or try to revert people. All we are permitted to do is spread the message. It’s up to God to make that person seewhat we beleive is true. In a time where Islam is being misunderstood, Muslims feels the need to do this mission even harder.

There are many people who are not Muslims that’s on the forums that I listed. They aren’t thinking about becoming a Muslim or anything, they are just there to clear their minds of misconception.

Fair enough, Salah. I, for one, do not wish to ‘single out’ Islam on this site. The problems I have with it are just the same as I do with any other religion.

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”]In order to question why should you take these Holy Books so seriously, you’d have to do deep studying of it’s origins.

Like you said: So it would seem, which brings me to the conclusion that you really do not know. So the question is now - Why don’t you know? My answer to this is lack of research. What is yours?

Well, it seems to me there has been plenty of research into the origins of the Bible. We have plenty of evidence about how the Bible was constructed from disparate sources, and about the contradictions in it, and about the evil god we see in it, to know that it is not infallible, and, indeed, to know that much of it is probably false.

More work is necessary on the origins of the Koran. One of the CFI’s writers is a man with the pseudonym “Ibn Warraq”, who has been pushing for more Koranic research and criticism. He claims (and I have no counter-evidence) that this sort of research has been suppressed, basically due to an unwillingness to face the possibility that it would show the book to have very human origins.

You may be interested to know that “Ibn Warraq” had to take this pseudonym out of fear for his life. He is afraid that he will be targeted for death for saying what he says. He has already been threatened. So, some Muslims at least are less pacifistic than you, I am afraid.

When I say it “seems” to me, I am saying that this is the evidence I have before my eyes. The Bible, the Koran, are story books like the Mahabharata or the Iliad. We read the Iliad without really expecting that Zeus is real! We read the Odyssey without thinking that Scylla and Charybdis really existed as evil goddesses.

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Posted: 01 September 2006 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Islam is such a beautiful religion. How can you have the same problem with it as you have with others? Please provide proof of how God is evil in the Bible. Provide proof of the Quran’s human origins.

It’s sad to hear that he is targetted for death. If what he is writting has valid evidence that it is true and not assumptions of possible truth, then I do not see why he is targetted for death.

Do you know Arabic?

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Posted: 01 September 2006 05:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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[quote author=“Salah ad-din”]Islam is such a beautiful religion. How can you have the same problem with it as you have with others?

There is much that is beautiful in religion. That I do not deny. For example, the great cathedrals are beautiful. The great mosques are beautiful—I have seen them in Andaluc’a, Turkey, Jordan and Egypt. The calligraphy is beautiful. I actually have some Arabic calligraphy on my wall, and a photograph of the Great Mosque in Crdoba.

What is not beautiful is the false claims of miracles, of knowledge of god, of a belief that your religion is ‘the chosen one’ and all the others are damned to hell. That is very ugly.

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”] Please provide proof of how God is evil in the Bible.

For a start, take a look at these passages . Then take a look at these passages . Then take a look at these passages . Then tell me with a straight face that this is a good and loving god and not a monster.

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”] Provide proof of the Quran’s human origins.

Well, that I know less about. But check here for a start.

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”]It’s sad to hear that he is targetted for death. If what he is writting has valid evidence that it is true and not assumptions of possible truth, then I do not see why he is targetted for death.

This is very strange, Salah. Even if his writings did not have ‘valid evidence’ how could a loving Moslem want to kill someone just for writing his own opinions? Doesn’t he have the freedom to say whatever he wishes?

I imagine that the people who want to kill him are people who disagree with what he says, and who think his evidence is so strong that they want to suppress it.

Why were there fatwas put out against Salman Rushdie? Do you think those were justified?

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”]Do you know Arabic?

No, but my wife knows a little. She lived for several years in Cairo.

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Posted: 01 September 2006 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Salah ad-din wrote:

“Islam is such a beautiful religion.”

Salan ad-din,
To me “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. I’m sure that you don’t agree with me but I’m sure that statement is a fact.
Bob

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Posted: 02 September 2006 04:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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There is a work on the origins of the Quran by Alan Dundes, now sadly, deceased. It is a slim paperback titled “Folklore in the Quran” published shortly before his death in 2003. Dundes was the greatly respected professor of Anthropology and Folklore at the University of California Berkeley.

A brief visit can still be had with him in the extras on the DVD “The God Who Wasn’t There”.  I think that is, perhaps, the best single thing on the DVD although lots of the disk is good. It introduced me to Dundes, Richard Carrier and Robert Price among others but I digress.

In the introduction he explains that he discovered no research of this sort had ever been done before and he learned from friends and associates that it was something he shouldn’t do. It might be considered demeaning to the Quran, a form of “disparagement” and thus even be dangerous to his continued existence. He ignored the warnings and did the research. The book is written quite differently than his earlier work on the bible, “The Holy Writ as Oral Lit”! He is very circumspect but makes his points never the less.

So given the threats made when one “disparages” the Quran does anyone think it even slightly possible that we could find 100 scholars to join a “Muhammad Seminar” as they did in the “Jesus Seminar”?
NOT A CHANCE!!

But Dundes work is a excellent start. He finds many puzzling inconsistencies in the Quran.

I don’t intend to recite Dundes work here but one point will serve to demonstrate its content.

Muhammad was purportedly illiterate, he could neither read nor write. This is important Dundes says, (page 2) because in that situation he was a blank slate for the Angel Gabriel to act upon. Yes the very same Angel who carried the word of God to the prophet Daniel, announced the birth of John the Baptist, and told Mary of the impending birth of her son Jesus.

How do we know that Muhammad could neither read nor write, the Quran tell us it is so! rolleyes (Surah 29 “The Spider”, 29:48) But in Surah 96 the very first supposedly given to him by the Angel he is commanded to “read”, 96:1. (another translation is “recite” but that makes less sense, admittedly in English.) and then in the many accounts of the day of Judgment, “Resurrection Day” Dundes says each believer is given a book and commanded “Read thy Book” (17:12, 69:19 cf 17:71) difficult if not impossible for those who can’t read.

I am disappointed that serious study of the Quran as a historical document has not been done but it will not be so long as threats of death hover over those who embark upon such a study.

Let me say this about myself. I do not believe in any sort of Deity. I think that what we have discovered about the world and ourselves in the past 71 years, my lifetime, explains scientifically many of the things that were a cause of religious belief in the ancient past. We know the earth’s age from radioactive Isotopic dating of the oldest rocks we can find, (those are about 3.65 Billion years old give or take a few hundred million years and were found in Australia.) We know that the universe is 13 to 14 Billion years old and we know what stars are not, holes in the blanket of the night letting the light of day peek through.

I think if we don’t somehow eliminate theocracies, religious education in the place of public education, and in this country stop home schooling, we are well down the road to our destruction as a species. Does anyone who read this think we can manage even one of the above goals? I repeat our family phrase “NOT A CHANCE”
Jim

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Posted: 02 September 2006 11:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Proof of the Quran’s human existence?

[quote author=“Salah ad-din”] Please provide proof of ... the Quran’s human origins.

This is a classical argument that theist use over and over again i.e. if you dont’ believe in the existence of God, please disprove his existence.

The origins of the Quran is exactle the same as the origins of all other scripture. It is the thoughts or actions of a particular human being or human beings passed on verbally and then written on parchment of writing material. Often this verbal communication has changed by the time it is written, but this is not the issue.

There is no reason for any secular humanist to prove to Salah ad-din that the Quran’s origins are human but the onus is on Salah ad-din to prove that the origins of the Quran are divine.

In regards to such proof it would have to presuppose that the existence of God is true. Since no human being has been able to furnish such proof, may I suggest to Salah ad-din that similar to the advise his given us to study the Quran, that Salah ad-din also spend time to study science so that he has the basis neccessary to be able to provide us with the neccessary arguments as to why he is RIGHT!

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