2 of 2
2
5 Examples Of Americans Thinking Foreign People Are Magic
Posted: 12 October 2010 08:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6162
Joined  2009-02-26

OCCAM
Birth control pills were developed in laboratories, and are among the most widely prescribed medications.


You really think that birthcontrol came with the “pill”?  See here for induced labor with cohosh.

See here: http://herbs.lovetoknow.com/Black_and_Blue_Cohosh_to_Induce_Labor
          http://www.sisterzeus.com/Abortif.htm

I am certainly NOT in a position to judge the reliability and effectiveness of these particular products, but that women have been engaged in birth control for perhaps thousands of years, leaves no doubt in my mind. People were not stupid in those days, just uninformed and many medicinal extracts and concoctions were arrived at by trial and error (with possible loss of life), no doubt. But I am confident that many effective and reliable (withstanding the test of time) herbals were developed long before modern medicine. Where there is a lack of written records, there are many verbal medical records passed from generation to generation by word of mouth and hands-on instruction (apprentiship and internship just like hospitals have today).
To say, that modern medicine and pharmaceuticals sprang up spontaneously from the realization that one’s health is essential to survival, seems a little naive considering the breath and width of mankind and environments to which they had to adapt or perish.

[ Edited: 12 October 2010 08:47 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 October 2010 08:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
Write4U - 12 October 2010 07:42 PM

But while in the hospital for irregularity in my heart, I was prescribed coumadin (warfarin), without proper cautionary explanation (or literature) of the inherent dangers with that specific drug. I nearly died from internal bleeding (my heart sack filled with blood and had to be drained or I would have died). I shall never take that drug willingly again.

If you were prescribed coumadin, I have no doubt that you needed it. Coumadin is prescribed to prevent clotting that can occur with cardiac arrhythmias. The arrhythmias can cause slot formation in the heart and those clots make a bee line to the lungs and brain. This can cause a debilitating or fatal pulmonary embolism or stroke. Taking ‘natural’ supplements are not the answer, because the dosage is not regulated and the interactions are not well studied. If they gave you coumadin without explaining the risks/benefits or what it was for, they were negligent.
All I ask is that history of early (natural) medicine be given some credit, when due, even if interspersed with ritual and prayer.

I have to agree with Brennan on this one. While we do get a large number of medicines from nature, the vast majority of ancient medicines that have been tested have been found to be useless, or with negligible benefits. I believe we have been able to make more meds from ancient poisons than from their cures.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 October 2010 09:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6162
Joined  2009-02-26
asanta - 12 October 2010 08:42 PM
Write4U - 12 October 2010 07:42 PM

But while in the hospital for irregularity in my heart, I was prescribed coumadin (warfarin), without proper cautionary explanation (or literature) of the inherent dangers with that specific drug. I nearly died from internal bleeding (my heart sack filled with blood and had to be drained or I would have died). I shall never take that drug willingly again.

If you were prescribed coumadin, I have no doubt that you needed it. Coumadin is prescribed to prevent clotting that can occur with cardiac arrhythmias. The arrhythmias can cause slot formation in the heart and those clots make a bee line to the lungs and brain. This can cause a debilitating or fatal pulmonary embolism or stroke. Taking ‘natural’ supplements are not the answer, because the dosage is not regulated and the interactions are not well studied. If they gave you coumadin without explaining the risks/benefits or what it was for, they were negligent.
All I ask is that history of early (natural) medicine be given some credit, when due, even if interspersed with ritual and prayer.


What I understand now (after the fact), coumadin must be monitored on an almost daily basis, especially during the early stages, much like insulin levels must be monitored daily by diabetics. I was NOT given adequate counseling on the dangers of this drug, and when I tried to make an follow up appointment (as “suggested” by the DR while I was sedated for anxiety), the consulting doctor (different from the prescriber) was busy and told me to make an appointment in the week following. Thus it was more than 10 days without any follow up on this deadly drug. This little oversight cost me $2000.00 in additional medical costs (hospital stay. tests, heart procedure). I had cause for law suit, but as there were some other considerations (one Dr was on vacation, covering physician might not have been aware of my condition, the medical secretary was not skilled enough to recognize the red flag of coumadin), and after my wife lectured the physicians in no uncertain terms, we decided not to pursue this further.

I have to agree with Brennan on this one. While we do get a large number of medicines from nature, the vast majority of ancient medicines that have been tested have been found to be useless, or with negligible benefits. I believe we have been able to make more meds from ancient poisons than from their cures.

Yes, I never disputed any of that, just that ancient knowledge of the natural environment and the dangers and benefits of its fauna, followed by the practical application of those properties, was the beginning of bioresearch and medicine (albeit in its crudest form).

Nowhere have I made a comparison or judgement as to the effectiveness of herbal based medicine vs synthetic drugs.
We “knew” that fruits and vegetables are “healthy foods” long before man became sentient. We figured out that certain herbs are “dangerous” and certain herbs are “healthy” long before these qualities were proven by science.
Frankly, I don’t know why the objections.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_product#The_plant_kingdom

Excerpts: “Plants have always been a rich source of lead compounds (e.g. morphine, cocaine, digitalis, quinine, tubocurarine, nicotine, and muscarine). Many of these lead compounds are useful drugs in themselves (e.g. morphine and quinine), and others have been the basis for synthetic drugs (e.g. local anaesthetics developed from cocaine). Clinically useful drugs which have been recently isolated from plants include the anticancer agent paclitaxel (Taxol) from the yew tree, and the antimalarial agent artemisinin from Artemisia annua”.

“Plants provide a large bank of rich, complex and highly varied structures which are unlikely to be synthesized in laboratories. Furthermore, evolution has already carried out a screening process itself whereby plants are more likely to survive if they contain potent compounds which deter animals or insects from eating them. Even today, the number of plants that have been extensively studied is relatively very few and the vast majority have not been studied at all”.

(The latter probably due to associated costs of discovery and available quantity. But to the natives these “gifts from the gods” were free and they had millennia to experiment).

“Traditional Medicine”
“In the past, traditional peoples or ancient civilizations depended greatly on local flora and fauna for their survival. They would experiment with various berries, leaves, roots, animal parts or minerals to find out what effects they had. As a result, many crude drugs were observed by the local healer or shaman to have some medical use. Although some preparations may have been dangerous, or worked by a ceremonial or placebo effect, traditional healing systems usually had a substantial active pharmacopoeia, and in fact most western medicines up until the 1920s were developed this way”

[ Edited: 12 October 2010 09:55 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 October 2010 10:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11

I’m not disagreeing with you about the coumadin. If things happened as you described it, they were negligent. I don’t know why you were not closely monitored because coumadin has a narrow therapeutic range. You also need to be counseled on food and drug interactions. I can’t believe they didn’t do that. You would think that with all of the medical professionals you went through, someone would have noticed (what about your wife, couldn’t she advocate for you. I have done that successfully for family members in the past.).

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 October 2010 10:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6162
Joined  2009-02-26

mckenzievmd,
Perhaps the statement should have read “in the early 1900’s as much as 75% of medicines were developed from plants and herbs”. As I said it was a long time ago when I read this, and obviously I failed to include the recent rapidly expanding knowledge of biochemistry and the development of modern medical pharmaceuticals.

[ Edited: 12 October 2010 11:21 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 October 2010 10:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6162
Joined  2009-02-26
asanta - 12 October 2010 10:17 PM

I’m not disagreeing with you about the coumadin. If things happened as you described it, they were negligent. I don’t know why you were not closely monitored because coumadin has a narrow therapeutic range. You also need to be counseled on food and drug interactions. I can’t believe they didn’t do that. You would think that with all of the medical professionals you went through, someone would have noticed (what about your wife, couldn’t she advocate for you. I have done that successfully for family members in the past.).

My wife is who made me go to emergency when she noticed my distress. She gave the physicians an earful, but she is “medical family” and understands the workings and failings of the hospital system. I had 4 different physicians prescribe 4 different drug regimen, but no one told me to destroy the earlier prescriptions. I found out by asking. However they did in fact save my life, so all is well that ends well.
My little experience (total 21 days in hospital for a relatively minor arythmia in an otherwise strong heart, which was fixed in 2 hours), would have made a good episode on Grey’s or House.. LOL

[ Edited: 12 October 2010 11:18 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 October 2010 11:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

Quoting W4U.

You really think that birthcontrol came with the “pill”?  See here for induced labor with cohosh.

  I agree that there were birth control methods before the pill, however, I don’t count condoms, coitus interruptus, and a sock wrapped around (oh yeah, that was an old limerick) as having led to the birth control chemicals.  There was ergot which caused abortions, but it also killed half of the women who used it.  Hmm in that case you are correct, chemists were able to convert the active ingredient in ergot into LSD, a fine progression from folk remedy to modern pharmaceutical.  (sorry, I’m being a wise ass)  It was also converted into a fair migraine medication. 

Fortunately, after my heart attack (moderate) and in the hospital, I was given aspirin and a synthetic anticoagulant (not Warfarin).  I’m still on Plavix and aspirin, but can’t take Zocor, Lipitor, or any other statin because I’ve developed severe sensitivity.  The first screws up my attention badly and got me into one stupid, but minor auto accident, the others cause severe muscle pain. 

It’s nice to be a chemist who reads quite a bit about various prescription drugs because I always ask a lot of questions and challenge the use of some of the items (which does annoy some of the doctors, but I figure, screw it, I’m paying them so they are my employees and I’m allowed to question their decisions).

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 October 2010 11:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
Occam. - 12 October 2010 11:43 PM

  It’s nice to be a chemist who reads quite a bit about various prescription drugs because I always ask a lot of questions and challenge the use of some of the items (which does annoy some of the doctors, but I figure, screw it, I’m paying them so they are my employees and I’m allowed to question their decisions).
Occam

I know what you mean! You really don’t want to be the doctor when I need treatment, or I’m there with family members! I question nearly everything! If it doesn’t follow the plan of care I am expecting…expect to defend your decisions! cool grin

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 October 2010 11:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6162
Joined  2009-02-26

Yes, even today we have to evaluate what selection of the various drugs or coctails are tolerated by the patient. There is still trial and error today, but we are able to diagnose and treat undesired reactions faster and treat them more effectively.

[ Edited: 12 October 2010 11:54 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 October 2010 11:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
Write4U - 12 October 2010 11:52 PM

Yes, even today we have to evaluate what effects the various drugs or coctails are tolerated by the patient. There is still trial and error today, but we are able to diagnose and treat undesired reactions faster and treat them more effectively.

...usually true. Sometimes the reaction has to be on the radar of the doctor. Having a good doctor, with lots of experience and who keeps up with the literature helps a lot. It also helps to have a doctor who doesn’t have such a large ego that s/he won’t consult with another doctor when s/he is stumped.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 October 2010 12:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

I agree.  I have the problem with my cardiologist.  He used to be a professor in a local medical school so that’s a good thing; he’s my age so he can relate to me, and that’s a good thing; and he’s my age which means he’s probably not able to keep up with all the latest changes which isn’t so good.  But, two out of three is OK as long as he doesn’t get too pissed when I bring him printouts of cardiac research articles I find on the internet.  smile

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 2
2