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German multicultural society has failed?
Posted: 18 October 2010 07:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Write4U - 16 October 2010 11:17 PM

Is it possibly an environmental question?  Seems to me that every culture reflects its environment.

Jawohl - it is worth out pointing that Germany is smaller than Montana with nearly 82 million residents.
That comes to about 600 people per square mile.

By comparison:
New Jersey 1,174
Rhode Island 1,008
Massachusetts 841.0
Connecticut 726.2
Maryland 583.1
Delaware 453.0
New York 413.9
After which the numbers plummet

So whereas east coast Americans still have an escape routes to less populated western provinces, that does not exist in Europe.

America needed all those immigrants to tame and subdue our vast nation - although now that we have succeeded in that we are reaching a point of diminishing returns and increasing intolerance.

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Posted: 18 October 2010 07:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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There are larger wheels turning here than just one’s happy recollection of a smiling Guatemalan gardener, or a particularly good plate of Sesame Chicken!!

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Posted: 18 October 2010 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Four people in this tread have now pointed to food as the reason why it is beneficial to live in a multicultural society. Really, food? I think you need to stop that; it almost sounds as if you had no other reason to appreciate the merits of living in a multicultural society.

So food aside, can anybody think of a reason why the Germans should think they are better off sharing their country with millions of Turks and Arabs?

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Posted: 18 October 2010 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Personally, I find different cultures inherently interesting, just as I find different experiences. Food is only one aspect of culture, although it is a large one. Music, dress, language, art, the list goes on and on.

Xenophobism, OTOH, I find odious.

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Posted: 18 October 2010 07:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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George - 18 October 2010 07:37 AM

So food aside, can anybody think of a reason why the Germans should think they are better off sharing their country with millions of Turks and Arabs?

I think it’s a case of “be careful what you wish for”.
When I lived there (mid seventies) Germans were desperate for Turks to work in their restaurant kitchens, (front of house, of course, was always lillie white young cuties). But, the economy of free wheeling free market consumption has done too good a job of consuming.

When the pickings get slim, glossed over issues return to the surface.

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Posted: 18 October 2010 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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George - 18 October 2010 07:20 AM
dougsmith - 18 October 2010 04:03 AM

More detail on Murkel’s point: kinder, küche, kirche. See HERE

“We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don’t accept them don’t have a place here,” said the chancellor.

I am not sure why you decided to quote this part of the article, but the “Christian values” in this context have obviously very little to do with religion. But maybe you wanted to bring our attention to the second sentence…(?)

Possibly because the right in Germany is opposing “the Muslim Invasion”

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Posted: 18 October 2010 08:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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George - 18 October 2010 07:37 AM

Four people in this tread have now pointed to food as the reason why it is beneficial to live in a multicultural society. Really, food? I think you need to stop that; it almost sounds as if you had no other reason to appreciate the merits of living in a multicultural society.

So food aside, can anybody think of a reason why the Germans should think they are better off sharing their country with millions of Turks and Arabs?

Because food is an easy and non-controversial example to use.  (and I was having breakfast as I wrote tongue rolleye )

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Posted: 18 October 2010 08:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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dougsmith - 18 October 2010 07:48 AM

Personally, I find different cultures inherently interesting, just as I find different experiences. Food is only one aspect of culture, although it is a large one. Music, dress, language, art, the list goes on and on.

Xenophobism, OTOH, I find odious.

Perhaps unfortunately economics will trump culture every time.
But more importantly, and I think extremely relevant to this discussion is this:
If some of you are placing such a high value on culture, then what of the vanishing cultures that these so-called xenophobes are losing?
Is that not worth anything? Or are some of you bold enough to take these lofty ideals and relegate just how these cultures are to effectively mix and integrate?
Basically it means that some of you are deciding which cultures go and which new cultures should be implemented.

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Posted: 18 October 2010 08:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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VYAZMA - 18 October 2010 08:00 AM
dougsmith - 18 October 2010 07:48 AM

Personally, I find different cultures inherently interesting, just as I find different experiences. Food is only one aspect of culture, although it is a large one. Music, dress, language, art, the list goes on and on.

Xenophobism, OTOH, I find odious.

Perhaps unfortunately economics will trump culture every time.
But more importantly, and I think extremely relevant to this discussion is this:
If some of you are placing such a high value on culture, then what of the vanishing cultures that these so-called xenophobes are losing?
Is that not worth anything? Or are some of you bold enough to take these lofty ideals and relegate just how these cultures are to effectively mix and integrate?
Basically it means that some of you are deciding which cultures go and which new cultures should be implemented.

Vyazma:

Economic provide the underlying foundation for any culture, however culture also influence economic choices.

Humans as a group will decide what cultures ‘vanish’ and which will survive, and this is based on their long term usefulness, nothing is worth preserving merely for its own sake.  Cultures in the past have valued headhunting and human sacrifice and I am more than happy to see them vanish.  No one of us individually has the power to determine how cultures are to mix and integrate

Here is a quote from Phillip Bobbitt’s “The Shield of Achilles” that I think applies not only to your viewpoint but also to some experiences that we have recently had at CFI:  “Like other great men, he seems to have forgotten that it takes an army of successors, often misinterpreting that great man’s work or perverting them for their own reasons, to really accomplish something.  Whether the posthumous army is summoned to any particular thinker’s banner, is usually not a matter of the great man’s doing, . . .”  Pg 513
  Bobbitt was speaking of Groitus a 15th century figure.

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Posted: 18 October 2010 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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VYAZMA - 18 October 2010 08:00 AM

Basically it means that some of you are deciding which cultures go and which new cultures should be implemented.

Right. On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met in Los Angeles. People (American Mexicans) booed when the national anthem was being played, the American flags were held upside down, people cheering for the U.S. were insulted and beaten and garbage was thrown at the American players. To this the American coach said that, “This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this profession.”

Later on when they asked the Mexican council in Los Angeles what he thought of the incident, he replied that they should stop playing the national anthem.

If this is the price some people wish to pay for having the opportunity to eat burritos for lunch at every corner of major U.S. cities, or be able to tune in to radio to be able to listen Salsa 24/7, that is their choice. But I still think that’s far from providing an evidence that multiculturalism is a good thing.

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Posted: 18 October 2010 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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I don’t have much use for multiculturalism. I think it, like numerous religious ideas should be a thing of the past. It, IMO, just promotes further separation of people.

I don’t care where a person comes from, who their farther was what language they speak. It only matters what they do here and now. Their past, their history/culture should have little to no consideration.

Generally history/culture is as delusional as most religious beliefs. Someone wants to pretend there culture/history/religion makes them who they are that’s fine. I see no reason that deserves any special respect.

Being Jewish or Native American or Scottish doesn’t mean anything. The only thing that means something is what you do now and how you treat others.

If I’m Jewish and your Jewish it shouldn’t mean I’m going to treat you any better of worse than the guy across the street who comes from Africa. It shouldn’t mean anything at all. If it does then how am I not prejudice?

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Posted: 18 October 2010 09:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Gnosikosis:

Economic(s) provide the underlying foundation for any culture, however culture also influence economic choices.

Humans as a group will decide what cultures ‘vanish’ and which will survive, and this is based on their long term usefulness, nothing is worth preserving merely for its own sake.  Cultures in the past have valued headhunting and human sacrifice and I am more than happy to see them vanish.  No one of us individually has the power to determine how cultures are to mix and integrate

I’m at a loss here to determine your angle.

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Posted: 18 October 2010 12:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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dougsmith - 18 October 2010 07:48 AM

Personally, I find different cultures inherently interesting, just as I find different experiences. Food is only one aspect of culture, although it is a large one. Music, dress, language, art, the list goes on and on.

Xenophobism, OTOH, I find odious.

Do you consider laws, system of government, and morals to be part of culture?  The Muslim immigrants in Europe have their own ideas about all three of these things.  Diversity of these things will cause conflict in a society, possibly destroy a society.  Variety of music, dress, food, and art seem to be things that would benefit society to have diversity of these things.  Language could be problematic if people refuse to learn the dominant language.  It’s OK to have 2nd and 3rd languages from whatever your roots are.  If people immigrate to a new country and maintain ONLY their original language, then they are refusing to participate in the mainstream culture.

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Posted: 18 October 2010 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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brightfut - 18 October 2010 12:03 PM
dougsmith - 18 October 2010 07:48 AM

Personally, I find different cultures inherently interesting, just as I find different experiences. Food is only one aspect of culture, although it is a large one. Music, dress, language, art, the list goes on and on.

Xenophobism, OTOH, I find odious.

Do you consider laws, system of government, and morals to be part of culture?  The Muslim immigrants in Europe have their own ideas about all three of these things.  Diversity of these things will cause conflict in a society, possibly destroy a society.  Variety of music, dress, food, and art seem to be things that would benefit society to have diversity of these things.  Language could be problematic if people refuse to learn the dominant language.  It’s OK to have 2nd and 3rd languages from whatever your roots are.  If people immigrate to a new country and maintain ONLY their original language, then they are refusing to participate in the mainstream culture.

There are an enormous range of ideas in Muslim culture about laws, government and morals, and about science and history, just as there are in Christian culture. Clearly, I don’t agree with all of them, and some of them I believe are factually incorrect and/or immoral. By saying that I find cultures inherently interesting I am not saying that all cultures are always right about everything, nor that all aspects of culture are ‘interesting’ in the relevant sense. That would be an absurd inference.

But while some Moslems and some Christians may be wrong about their views on morality and the law, or on the status of the sciences, there is no similar sense to be made of them being ‘wrong’ about the other cultural aspects I touched on, above. It used to be that it was common in certain eurocentric circles to demean the food, dress or art of distant cultures. That’s rather gone away, and it’s a good thing it has, too. While one may prefer certain kinds of art or food or dress or mannerisms to others, the notion that our world would be richer were we to lose completely these other cultures strikes me as a variety of xenophobia.

Humanism is almost by definition a universalizing form of ethics. But one can achieve everything one wants of humanism without losing cultural distinctiveness. Sure, we’d no longer allow such things as wife beating, but then wife beating was never one of the parts of culture I’d have included as ‘interesting’, above. I’d wager most immigrants to the west agree, the odd newsworthy criminal notwithstanding.

Re. the dominant language, children learn the language of their peers. Hand wringing about US citizens’ inability to speak English has gone on now for centuries with each new immigrant group, and each generation wrings their hands anew. It’s not a serious issue.

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Posted: 18 October 2010 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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dougsmith - 18 October 2010 12:43 PM

But while some Moslems and some Christians may be wrong about their views on morality and the law, or on the status of the sciences, there is no similar sense to be made of them being ‘wrong’ about the other cultural aspects I touched on, above. It used to be that it was common in certain eurocentric circles to demean the food, dress or art of distant cultures. That’s rather gone away, and it’s a good thing it has, too. While one may prefer certain kinds of art or food or dress or mannerisms to others, the notion that our world would be richer were we to lose completely these other cultures strikes me as a variety of xenophobia.

You keep cherry picking, repeating to present the food example as an evidence that mixing cultures is a healthy thing. What about, say, cousin marriage? Forget about all the risks associated with the health issues here—I guess that’s their choice—but cousin marriage is not something we should be welcoming in our society. Cousin marriage might generate stable relationship between families but worsens relationship for the rest of us.

Actually, I take the health comment (the “it’s okay, it’s their choice”) back. According to studies “the British Pakistani/Bangladeshi community, in which at least 55% of those married were married to a first-cousin, were at least 13 times more likely to have children with recessive genetic disorders than the general population of the UK.” Should the rest of the Brits keep paying money to deal with the health problems resulting from cousin marriages? Why?

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