4 of 5
4
German multicultural society has failed?
Posted: 18 October 2010 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1332
Joined  2010-06-07
VYAZMA - 18 October 2010 09:15 AM

Gnosikosis:

Economic(s) provide the underlying foundation for any culture, however culture also influence economic choices.

Humans as a group will decide what cultures ‘vanish’ and which will survive, and this is based on their long term usefulness, nothing is worth preserving merely for its own sake.  Cultures in the past have valued headhunting and human sacrifice and I am more than happy to see them vanish.  No one of us individually has the power to determine how cultures are to mix and integrate

I’m at a loss here to determine your angle.

Me too, since it wasn’t my quote.  grin

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 October 2010 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1757
Joined  2007-10-22
VYAZMA - 18 October 2010 09:15 AM

Gnosikosis:

Economic(s) provide the underlying foundation for any culture, however culture also influence economic choices.

Humans as a group will decide what cultures ‘vanish’ and which will survive, and this is based on their long term usefulness, nothing is worth preserving merely for its own sake.  Cultures in the past have valued headhunting and human sacrifice and I am more than happy to see them vanish.  No one of us individually has the power to determine how cultures are to mix and integrate

I’m at a loss here to determine your angle.

Vyazma:

My quote and the only “angle” I have with this observation is that this is how the world works, idividuals may influence cultures and socities but groups determine their structure at any particular point in time.

Later tonight I may hava angle playing pool down to the “Church of the Corner Bar.” oh oh

 Signature 

Gary the Human

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 October 2010 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29

I have checked several websites on this issue (European, U.S. and Canadian), and have found that the vast majority (more than 90%) of the people adding their opinions in the comment sections following the articles are supportive of Merkel’s views. To my surprise this even includes Canadian websites, which is something I didn’t expect.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 October 2010 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1332
Joined  2010-06-07
George - 19 October 2010 09:32 AM

I have checked several websites on this issue (European, U.S. and Canadian), and have found that the vast majority (more than 90%) of the people adding their opinions in the comment sections following the articles are supportive of Merkel’s views. To my surprise this even includes Canadian websites, which is something I didn’t expect.

Human nature IMO to be prejudice against the people of another “tribe”. Hell, I feel it if I identify with some group and that group is being attacked by an “outside tribe”. I will start to feel unreasonably hostile towards an entire group of people if a minority of individuals seem to be chronically attacking some group/culture/religion that I identify with.

Atheist vs Christians is perhaps a good example I think.

So I just don’t identify with anything. I’m not responsible for what some other individual does regardless that someone else sees me as a member of that group. I don’t pretend to represent any group. I am responsible for my actions and how I treat others.  So if someone attacks my “culture”, whatever like being an America it means nothing to me. If someone tries to get me to support one tribe (supposedly my tribe) against another, it means nothing.

If someone can identify with a group/culture and still remain neutral towards others who are prejudice against whatever group/culture they happen to identify with, they are a better person than me.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 October 2010 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3028
Joined  2010-04-26

Bow before me!  Your better!

 Signature 

“In the end nature is horrific and teaches us nothing.” -Mutual of Omicron

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 October 2010 12:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
Gnostikosis - 19 October 2010 12:04 PM
George - 19 October 2010 09:32 AM

I have checked several websites on this issue (European, U.S. and Canadian), and have found that the vast majority (more than 90%) of the people adding their opinions in the comment sections following the articles are supportive of Merkel’s views. To my surprise this even includes Canadian websites, which is something I didn’t expect.

Human nature IMO to be prejudice against the people of another “tribe”. Hell, I feel it if I identify with some group and that group is being attacked by an “outside tribe”. I will start to feel unreasonably hostile towards an entire group of people if a minority of individuals seem to be chronically attacking some group/culture/religion that I identify with.

Atheist vs Christians is perhaps a good example I think.

So I just don’t identify with anything. I’m not responsible for what some other individual does regardless that someone else sees me as a member of that group. I don’t pretend to represent any group. I am responsible for my actions and how I treat others.  So if someone attacks my “culture”, whatever like being an America it means nothing to me. If someone tries to get me to support one tribe (supposedly my tribe) against another, it means nothing.

If someone can identify with a group/culture and still remain neutral towards others who are prejudice against whatever group/culture they happen to identify with, they are a better person than me.

The reason I wanted to see what most people thought was due to Doug’s comment where he said that, “[...] tribalism is part of our genetic heritage, but so is murder, and we can overcome it if we work at it.” I thought it was an interesting opinion, and I wanted to see how people felt about tribalism compared to murder. After finding that the majority of people supported Merkel’s views, I am inclined to believe that people don’t act upon these views not because they don’t believe tribalism is wrong (the majority of people today feel murder is wrong), but because they find it, hmm, “more convenient” not to act upon them. Perhaps there was a time in our past when the majority of people still felt like murdering each other, but gradually stopped doing so because it was “not convenient.” IOW, regarding tribalism, we are today where we were—when compared to murder—hundreds of year ago. When it comes to tribalism, I think people don’t act upon their beliefs simply because it is not convenient. In reality, however, they don’t think too highly of other peoples.

This is why I believe Merkel’s comments are very dangerous, as people could be easily persuaded to “act upon their beliefs.”

P.S. I hope this makes some sense.  confused

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 October 2010 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1332
Joined  2010-06-07
George - 19 October 2010 12:54 PM

In reality, however, they don’t think too highly of other peoples.

I have to work at it because I am usually surrounded by people who look down on others and there seems to be in me a tendency to go along with it. 

This is why I believe Merkel’s comments are very dangerous, as people could be easily persuaded to “act upon their beliefs.”

P.S. I hope this makes some sense.  confused

I’m sure they will.

I’m pretty good dealing with others on an individual basis without prejudice. However in a group, peer pressure mentality always threatens to take over. I’m not sure why that is, so this is just how I go about dealing with it.  Perhaps it’s hard to overcome one’s upbringing?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 October 2010 01:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1332
Joined  2010-06-07
Dead Monky - 19 October 2010 12:06 PM

Bow before me!  Your better!

Ah yes… Namaste.  downer

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 October 2010 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3028
Joined  2010-04-26

There’s a lot of interesting research that’s been done on groups and how people will just sort of go along with the group.  Depending on which study you’re reading it’s because of social expectations, peer pressure, evolutionary hold-over, or simply because they think they’re supposed to.

 Signature 

“In the end nature is horrific and teaches us nothing.” -Mutual of Omicron

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 October 2010 04:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4447
Joined  2008-08-14
Gnostikosis - 18 October 2010 01:28 PM
VYAZMA - 18 October 2010 09:15 AM

Gnosikosis:

Economic(s) provide the underlying foundation for any culture, however culture also influence economic choices.

Humans as a group will decide what cultures ‘vanish’ and which will survive, and this is based on their long term usefulness, nothing is worth preserving merely for its own sake.  Cultures in the past have valued headhunting and human sacrifice and I am more than happy to see them vanish.  No one of us individually has the power to determine how cultures are to mix and integrate

I’m at a loss here to determine your angle.

Me too, since it wasn’t my quote.  grin

oops! Sorry.

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 October 2010 04:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4447
Joined  2008-08-14
garythehuman - 18 October 2010 02:32 PM
VYAZMA - 18 October 2010 09:15 AM

Gnosikosis:

Economic(s) provide the underlying foundation for any culture, however culture also influence economic choices.

Humans as a group will decide what cultures ‘vanish’ and which will survive, and this is based on their long term usefulness, nothing is worth preserving merely for its own sake.  Cultures in the past have valued headhunting and human sacrifice and I am more than happy to see them vanish.  No one of us individually has the power to determine how cultures are to mix and integrate

I’m at a loss here to determine your angle.

Vyazma:

My quote and the only “angle” I have with this observation is that this is how the world works, idividuals may influence cultures and socities but groups determine their structure at any particular point in time.

Later tonight I may hava angle playing pool down to the “Church of the Corner Bar.” oh oh

I do not know what this means, and I don’t know how it addresses my posts in this thread Gary. Nothing exists for it’s own sake to begin with Gary, so anything that is trying to be preserved by people is obviously worth something.
But blah, blah, blah…I didn’t mean to enter the philosophy or “meaningful” part of this issue. I am not surprised by the German issue. Nor the backlash against illegal immigrants here in the US. Frankly I’d like to see these views advanced and develop into a more responsible and reasonable way of administering policy and society.

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 January 2011 09:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
Jr. Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  63
Joined  2010-03-07

I think it can work in a society with a secular government and secular public institutions like German, Britain, France or other.
The problem is people have to want it to work.

Gary

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 January 2011 02:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  81
Joined  2010-12-25

I think the reason behind the failure of Multiculturalism in any country is assimilation , in Germany the foreigners live in their own neighborhoods where they meet their own people and speak their own language ,this will prevent any future integration and that’s the heart of the problem that Germany is suffering from not to mention some immigrants bring their own cultural values with them and try to force it on others and that just adds more fuel to the burning fire .

so here is KSA we have the same problem and worse , the number of east Asian immigrants is rapidly increasing especially from India,Pakistan and Bangladesh and the percent of immigrants is 31% and i think that’s higher than Germany , so here is my theory to solve the immigration problem in every country .

“The percent of immigrants must not exceed 5% of the total population in any country,the government must keep the number at 5% maximum at all costs” not to mention that all immigrants must assimilate and learn the language of the country they live in which is vital for integration .

weird ? right , but there are future problems that might come from this so called “theory”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 January 2011 08:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
Jr. Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  63
Joined  2010-03-07
Occam. - 16 October 2010 01:37 PM

I think George was saying that while multiculturalism appears to work in big cities because most of the people there don’t relate to their neighbors anyway, it doesn’t really work there and doesn’t work in small towns either.  Not that I completely agree, but that’s what I saw George’s post as saying.

Occam

I agree with George and Occam.
People clump together by affinity.
I’ve been thinking hard on the values of liberty and freedom that were inculcated into me as a youth, the idea that nothing should be forced on anyone. But then I look at the kids of parents who were forced, in some fashion (busing, desegregation of neighborhoods, multicultural literature curriculum in public schools, etc.) and I see that the kids easily take for granted hanging out and playing with friends of different races, ethnicity, and national origin.So the payoff of a communitarian rather than a libertarian approach paid off in the next generation.

I had been wondering how Mustafa Kemal Atatürk had achieved a stringent secular and pro-science society. So, I went to the library and read up on the subject. He forced it on people. Now Turkey has an army that is loyal to secularism. I’ve had to rethink a lot. Democracy and individual freedom (in this case the freedom to remain provincial and uneducated) has it’s limitations.

What to do about it…?  I haven’t a clue. But I do think the evidence points in the direction of forcing people to assimilate.

And I’m about to hit the “Submit Post”  button to find out where my post went, ... if I can find it.

Gary

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 January 2011 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6014
Joined  2009-02-26

gary100
I’ve had to rethink a lot. Democracy and individual freedom (in this case the freedom to remain provincial and uneducated) has it’s limitations.

That seemingly innocent remark presents a real contradiction

Democracy and individual freedom can only exist in a truly civilized and educated society.
Unfortunately the US has not yet risen to that level, so in order to achieve true democracy and freedom, your posit of needing a “forced” assimilation to earn those rights may well be necessary (Socrates?)

[ Edited: 08 January 2011 12:41 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
   
4 of 5
4