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Neurosoma, is this legit?!
Posted: 18 October 2010 06:36 PM   [ Ignore ]
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My wife was telling me about a conversation she was having with her mother. Seems that her mother’s undergoing something called “neurosoma” massage. Her mother claims that this has relieved her back and knee pain. Which is technically a good thing, but I question the some of the claims made. (She even mentioned to my wife that her asthma has gotten better. I can’t imagine how massage of any kind could help asthma.)

So I did a brief search and the first thing that pops up is the site by the “inventor” of this treatment. Here’s the main website, via tiny URL. (I tried using the site’s direct URL but the forum software blocked me.) Smells like baloney to me.

Any thoughts on this treatment?

As an aside, I need to work on my skeptical demeanor and in particular my tone of voice, as apparently I come off as fairly contemptuous of what I perceive to be quackery when talking with my wife. smile

Take care,

Derek

Edit: To make it more neutral and less nasty. red face

[ Edited: 27 November 2010 09:48 PM by harry canyon ]
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Posted: 18 October 2010 09:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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While I agree that the majority of these naturalistic treatments are useless, except for the soothing effect of the massage itself, I wonder if chiropractic adjustments fall in that category. When playing upright bass daily for 7 years I developed a curvature in the spine. I had several “corrective” chiropractic sessions and found temporary relief from the minor discomfort. This, however did not prevent the eventual onset of a “bulging” disk. Or was the chiropractic manipulation responsible for this?
Anyone with in-depth knowledge about this?

[ Edited: 18 October 2010 09:18 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 19 October 2010 10:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Write4U - 18 October 2010 09:12 PM

While I agree that the majority of these naturalistic treatments are useless, except for the soothing effect of the massage itself, I wonder if chiropractic adjustments fall in that category. When playing upright bass daily for 7 years I developed a curvature in the spine. I had several “corrective” chiropractic sessions and found temporary relief from the minor discomfort. This, however did not prevent the eventual onset of a “bulging” disk. Or was the chiropractic manipulation responsible for this?
Anyone with in-depth knowledge about this?

I don’t have in-depth knowledge about this, but I do have an anecdote to share. grin

After four and half years shlepping boxes at UPS in my late twenties, I developed a bulging disc. After two failed attempts at physical therapy (provided by the “company” doctors) I was sent to a new physical therapist. I spent one month, six hours a day there. Mostly exercising (cardio, lots of abdominal strengthening, and core muscle training). They also used an adjustment each day before the heat treatment. I don’t know if that really helped since it was such a minor part of my PT.

I still have a bulging disc, but it doesn’t bother me except once in a while depending on what activity I engaged in.

I do recall reading that the only thing that chiropractic has shown some efficacy is specifically in lower back issues, but I don’t recall the source. (It might have been in Trick or Treatment.)

Take care,

Derek

[ Edited: 28 October 2010 11:32 AM by harry canyon ]
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Posted: 26 October 2010 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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To the original poster.  I also have a skeptical demeanor.  Griner also has a skeptical demeanor.  Unlike you and I, though, I believe Griner pulled straight As at Purdue in Engineering and then designed experiments for NASA at JPL.  I have found him to be a very intelligent, factual, and reasonable person.  He only deals with physiological facts.  I have found everything he has told me to play out in physiological reality. I do not speak for him.  These are my experiences and opinions.  Read his book for a complete explanation.

First, the website you link to is not his website.  That website is administrated by his neurosoma instructor.  His website is http://www.biopulser.com.

Second, you obviously haven’t even read the book.  However, I have read the book (made complete sense to me) and I have been treated by him 25 times.  I will only relate here what I have actually experienced.  I have only been treated by him, so I cannot comment on any other practitioner of this technique.

He makes no promises of results; he only promises to practice his technique.  However, he has delivered only significant positive results EVERY time I have seen him over the last 4 years.  I once went 1 1/2 years between treatments with little degradation (which was reversed out plus more positive results in the visit following the layoff).  Another time I didn’t see him for 12 months(same deal).  I did this intentionally to determine if this treatment was BS; it’s not.  Stop practicing yoga or stretching for this amount of time(I’ve done this).  You will have PAIN because you are stretching your tendons while tightening the muscle.  When you quit, the tendon shortens revealing a shortened muscle that will cause you pain.  It makes you worse to a degree dependent on how aggressive it was.  My pain is little now and, eventually, will be non-existent.  My range of motion is way greater than when I began.  It increases with each visit I make to him and each self-treatment with my Biopulser.  This “silly gizmo” is amazingly effective. He encourages you to do as much as you can for yourself.  He wants you to get well, so you don’t have to see him much.

The basis of his treatment is to stimulate feedback nerves in the muscle spindle to cause the release of lactic acid in the muscle.  The reason why your muscles cannot relax at a certain point is because trauma or overuse causes so much lactic acid to buildup in the muscle that the signals from the nerves cannot get through to the brain to tell the muscle to release it.  The Biopulser vibrates the muscle according to a biological constraint and excites the spindles to release lactic acid.  The specific hand technique wipes away the lactic acid.  The muscle has layers and he has to release it layer-by layer.  This is a simplified explanation. Again, read the book.

I had seen every “doctor”  I could think of for bad leg/back pain I had for 15 years 24/7 before someone suggested him.  None of the others could do anything for me, but take my money.  Some examples of my experience are chiropractic, stretching/yoga/egoscue method (all the same concept), orthopedics, orthopedic surgeons, reflexologists, other forms of massage.  None of these relax your muscles; I didn’t try surgery. 

He began by being asked by a group of chiropractors to verify their technique and he couldn’t verify it scientifically.  He became curious.  His investigation of the pain problem is what eventually led to his discovery of this technique.  He has developed it over 40 years and is himself a prime example of the effectiveness of his work.

This guy is not a doctor;  I would consider him an engineer/scientist.  By the way, the next time you go to a pain doctor or surgeon and he says he can fix your pain problem, offer to pay double , if successful, or nothing, if not.  Then sit back and listen to the stuttering and backtracking.  They always seemed so confident a minute before that.  I found they don’t like a lot of questions.  This guy has an intelligent answer or admits what he doesn’t know for every one of my questions.

Chiropractic IS hooey.  Griner agrees with you, although he uses other terminology to describe it.  Your muscles hold your bones in place or not the other way around.  Looking at it in lay terms, how could jerking your muscles relax them.  It will only tighten them further and release enough endorphins to keep you out of pain for a short while.  Next time you “jam” your finger, pull on it and let me know how that eventually turns out.  Please don’t, because I already know the outcome.  You will too, all over your body, if you do chiropractic.  Vibrating and coaxing the muscle makes more sense to me and bears out in my reality.

The other forms of massage I experienced were hooey.  They only release endorphins for temporary relief (thus soothing?).  Meanwhile, your muscles get tighter each time ever so slightly that will eventually lead to a wonderful pain that won’t go away in the future.  Oh yeah, and it will return in about a day or two almost (and eventually) as bad or worse than before you were treated.

To the later poster.  The bulging disc was aggravated by the chiropractic, but the bulk was your excessive contraction of muscle with UPS.  A muscle has enough oxygen to contract for 6 seconds, then it needs a 5 second rest.  Otherwise, lactic acid is building until permanent contraction.  Getting the biopulser and using it CORRECTLY should do wonders.  Physical Therapy.  Doing more strenuous exercises will cure what was caused by too much exertion?

First poster. I think you have a sense of humor.  Certainly, your wife and mother-in-law do.

Your mother-in-law is describing her situation accurately and so she now knows with complete accuracy that her daughter married an idiot.  She also can tell you don’t think very highly of her.  Show my post to her and she’ll tell you that everything I said is true.  I really mean no offense and wish you all the best.

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Posted: 26 October 2010 05:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Daves, just shill man.

Derek

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Posted: 26 October 2010 05:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Hey, he’s not necessarily a shill.  He could be a sock puppet.

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Posted: 26 October 2010 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Dead Monky - 26 October 2010 05:33 PM

Hey, he’s not necessarily a shill.  He could be a sock puppet.

Good point.

(Although I can’t think of anything punny for that… wink)

I love how he means no offense right after calling me an idiot! ROFLMAO!

Take care,

Derek

[ Edited: 26 October 2010 05:46 PM by harry canyon ]
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Posted: 26 October 2010 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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I couldn’t find it at first, but I knew there had to be a link in there somewhere!

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Posted: 27 October 2010 02:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Looks like classic pseudoscience to me. Take real facts about muscles, build a bogus theory around them for why your type of massage is better than anyone elses, then support it with testimonials rather than controlled clinical trials. Probably harmless (except to your wallet) and probably feels about as good as any other massage.

As for the chiropractic question, there is some good evidence it is about as effective as physical therapy for lower back pain. Certain kinds of aggressive manipulations can, however, worsen intervertebral disk diseases, so it is hard to say whether the chiro ultimately did more good or harm in your case, write4u.

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Posted: 27 October 2010 02:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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mckenzievmd - 27 October 2010 02:00 PM

Looks like classic pseudoscience to me. Take real facts about muscles, build a bogus theory around them for why your type of massage is better than anyone elses, then support it with testimonials rather than controlled clinical trials. Probably harmless (except to your wallet) and probably feels about as good as any other massage.

As for the chiropractic question, there is some good evidence it is about as effective as physical therapy for lower back pain. Certain kinds of aggressive manipulations can, however, worsen intervertebral disk diseases, so it is hard to say whether the chiro ultimately did more good or harm in your case, write4u.

Yes, after I retired from music I no longer saw a chiropractor, but did enjoy a long rest from heavy stresses on my spine. Haven’t had a problem since, except for an occasional warning when trying to lift something heavy. Thus, for me total and extended rest was the cure for the inflammation and swelling which were responsible for the pain.

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Posted: 27 October 2010 03:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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harry canyon - 18 October 2010 06:36 PM

My wife was telling me about a conversation she was having with her mother. Seems that her mother’s undergoing something called “neurosoma” massage. Her mother claims that this has relieved her back and knee pain. (She even mentioned to my wife that her asthma has gotten better.)  hmmm

So I did a brief search and the first thing that pops up is the site by the “inventor” of this treatment. Here’s the main website, via tiny URL. (I tried using the site’s direct URL but the forum software blocked me.) Smells like baloney to me.

Any thoughts on this fellow? (Oh, the silly gizmo he created is rather funny as well.)

As an aside, I need to work on my skeptical demeanor and in particular my tone of voice, as apparently I come off as fairly contemptuous of quackery when talking with my wife. smile I love her dearly, but she’s definitely got some woo thinking going on. As soon as I start questioning these “treatments” she pretty much defends them. (‘Course I haven’t been able to convince her that chiropractic is hooey either. downer)

Take care,

Derek

Everyone knows that a Neurosoma Massage helps cure Draculitis!

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Posted: 27 October 2010 05:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Harry Canyon.  Correction.  You take yourself very seriously.  As for me, I’m an idiot.  Sorry I ruffled your feathers.  You do believe in feathers, don’t you?

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Posted: 27 October 2010 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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mckenzievmd
 
As for the chiropractic question, it is about as effective as physical therapy for lower back pain.  The pain always returns.  Takes a little longer. 

I agree with you that resting is better than other solutions.  Why not increase your range of motion and have less limitations? 

I see you are an MD (or play one on cfi website).  Love to hear about all of your colleague’s back pain resolution success stories.  I’ll wait for them on your next post.  Feel free to reference the clinical studies.  That’s when the pseudoscience begins.  Medicine and surgery, medicine and surgery, medicine and surgery ... 

Please don’t try a new idea.  That might be considered open-minded. 

Once again, please give me the success stories and the clinical study references.

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Posted: 27 October 2010 06:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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daves - 27 October 2010 06:10 PM

mckenzievmd
 
As for the chiropractic question, it is about as effective as physical therapy for lower back pain.  The pain always returns.  Takes a little longer. 

I agree with you that resting is better than other solutions.  Why not increase your range of motion and have less limitations? 

I see you are an MD (or play one on cfi website).  Love to hear about all of your colleague’s back pain resolution success stories.  I’ll wait for them on your next post.  Feel free to reference the clinical studies.  That’s when the pseudoscience begins.  Medicine and surgery, medicine and surgery, medicine and surgery ... 

Please don’t try a new idea.  That might be considered open-minded. 

Once again, please give me the success stories and the clinical study references.

gulp...... I remember, not long ago I was there too…......... red face

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Posted: 27 October 2010 11:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Daves, since you’re new here, I’ll cut you a very small amount of slack.  First, your ridiculously long and rambling first post above was both dumb and obnoxious.  Try to be more succinct and objective. 

Second, try to be more courteous.  You had no justification to be snotty to Harry Canyon.

Third, McKenzie is a veterinarian, not an MD.  And if you had spent time going through the history of this website you’d have seen far more than adequate proof of that. 

Fourth, if you feel there’s a problem with someone’s posted opinion, do the damned research yourself to show the difficulties rather than asking them to provide “the success stories and clinical study references.”

Occam

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Posted: 29 October 2010 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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First, you needn’t cut me any slack.  Good thing I didn’t provide all the rambling details that would have been included in a full physiologically-based explanation to what I thought was an inquiry.  Its a topic more complex than a site, such as this, will allow.  I wasn’t aware of that.  I do bear responsibility for following his lead in being dumb and obnoxious.  You realize there are people who might see my side and also correctly interpret my humor? 

Second, I had justification.  Speaking of courteous, explain WTF in topic title.  Isn’t that in the original post?  He obviously lacks courtesy for his own mother-in-law.  Thought he could take a little back.  I admit I was wrong about that.  Have him show all this to his mother-in-law and have her post her opinion.  Was hooey not in the first post.  Read Dead Monky post.  What’s ROFLMAO mean?  I’m not part of the little boy’s club.  I sense favoritism. 

Third, apologies McKenzie.  Animals are definitely on a higher ethical plain than people.  But, really, animals lack the verbal communication skills to express their interpretation of treatment “success”.

Fourth, they challenged me.  I just challenged them.  Don’t see any profanity or the like from anyone, except the original poster.  I don’t see his chastising in the thread.  Please note McKenziemd post.  Bogus.  Pseudoscience.  Using those terms after all the research he did on the topic of this thread.  He threw his hat in the ring.  I’ve already researched these topics for 20 years.  My conclusions were stated above only regarding my own experiences.  The site history must be agree or be removed.  I found this site, accidentally, on a Google search. 

I’ll check back for laugh, but I feel no need to post further on this site.  It appears you guys can make fun of others, but they can’t of you.  I hope people laugh at both of us.  You may delete my posts in the interest of objectivity and please don’t tell my mommy I was here. 

Daves

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