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Science as religion (Merged)
Posted: 10 November 2010 06:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 121 ]
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Doctor Bad Sign - 10 November 2010 06:08 AM

I will have a look shortly. I agree that is what spirituality is, but I resent the term because it is often associated with religiosity.

You’re not the only one in this forum… But I belong to those few that think the concept of spirituality makes sense in a scientific world view. Spirituality refers to reflecting ones place in the order of things. These ‘things’ vary according the world view, if you are religious you would presume a god, if you are not it is everything in the universe. And such a reflection was already nicely described by you.

Doctor Bad Sign - 10 November 2010 06:08 AM

When saying “I am a spiritual person” - that generally is interpreted as being some kind of New Age type thing, and I’m not into that.

Me neither. It doesn’t need anything supernatural to have a meaningful life in a meaningless universe.

GdB

PS Are you a night bird, or are at home somewhere in Europe?

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“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

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Posted: 10 November 2010 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 122 ]
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GdB - 10 November 2010 02:23 AM

So how can you distinguish between religion and science? Both have authority, as long you are not the scientist yourself investigating on the subject. Is there no difference between the kind of authority? Is ‘AGW is taking place’ from the same order as ‘Christ is requiring this from you’? Do both reasons have the same kind of authority?

GdB

To the novice, yeah.

To me, in the sense you, I suspect mean Christ as the person of Jesus, no. Jesus is dead and isn’t requiring anything from anyone.

When one is young, a person almost falls into an acceptance of authority that depends more on circumstances then any rational thinking.

I can’t fault people for whom they’ve accepted as their authority figure, however I can encourage a person to question that authority, to test the validity of it.

When you trust authority you are trusting a person. Not religion or science, a person who is supposed to be knowledgeable and someone you can trust to guide you. You have to know somebody to know that you can trust them. Otherwise it is blind faith.

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Posted: 10 November 2010 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 123 ]
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GdB - 10 November 2010 06:47 AM

PS Are you a night bird, or are at home somewhere in Europe?

I live in England smile

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“A question in your nerves is lit, yet you know there is no answer fit, to satisfy ensure you not to quit, to keep in your mind and not forget, that it is not he or she or them or it that you belong to.”

Bob Dylan

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Posted: 10 November 2010 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 124 ]
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Doctor Bad Sign - 10 November 2010 09:47 AM
GdB - 10 November 2010 06:47 AM

PS Are you a night bird, or are at home somewhere in Europe?

I live in England smile

Excellent choice for a quote and avatar. Big Dylan fan here.

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Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

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Posted: 10 November 2010 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 125 ]
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VYAZMA - 10 November 2010 10:24 AM
Doctor Bad Sign - 10 November 2010 09:47 AM
GdB - 10 November 2010 06:47 AM

PS Are you a night bird, or are at home somewhere in Europe?

I live in England smile

Excellent choice for a quote and avatar. Big Dylan fan here.

Cheers! Me too!

Nice to meet you *tips hat*

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“A question in your nerves is lit, yet you know there is no answer fit, to satisfy ensure you not to quit, to keep in your mind and not forget, that it is not he or she or them or it that you belong to.”

Bob Dylan

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Posted: 10 November 2010 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 126 ]
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Doctor Bad Sign - 10 November 2010 03:33 AM

Contemplating science has brought me experiences that can be described as feeling almost religious. That sense of wonder that tingles to your bones when contemplating the sheer magnitude of our cosmos.

That is not to say that science is my religion.

Beautifully stated! And very true.

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Posted: 10 November 2010 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 127 ]
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GdB - 10 November 2010 02:23 AM
Gnostikosis - 09 November 2010 04:51 PM

. . . As you say, the weight of their authority leads your conviction. That’s how religion works.
...
You may feel you have good reason to trust the authority that you trust. So does everyone else.

So how can you distinguish between religion and science? Both have authority, as long you are not the scientist yourself investigating on the subject. Is there no difference between the kind of authority? Is ‘AGW is taking place’ from the same order as ‘Christ is requiring this from you’? Do both reasons have the same kind of authority?

GdB

NO both do not carry the same authority!

Because, Christ and Jesus and salvation are all beyond any sort of physical examination - they absolutely and totally reside within our human minds.
AGW, or better our Climate Processes, are physical phenomena that are available to measurement and examination. And the voracity of a particular scientist’s study can be compared with other scientific studies.  Whereas my own religious experience can never be know by, or compared to another’s.


Comparing religion to science is like. . .
Christ jesus faith-based stuff being akin to operating on Winnie the Poop -
Whereas science based examination of AGW is more akin to operating on a real human.

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Posted: 10 November 2010 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 128 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 10 November 2010 11:24 AM

NO both do not carry the same authority!

The question was not addressed to you… But fair enough, I think the same, but I am very curious how Gnostikosis sees this.

GdB

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Posted: 10 November 2010 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 129 ]
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GdB - 10 November 2010 11:41 AM
citizenschallenge.pm - 10 November 2010 11:24 AM

NO both do not carry the same authority!

The question was not addressed to you… But fair enough, I think the same, but I am very curious how Gnostikosis sees this.

GdB

well public forums are a bitch.
sorry - couldn’t hold back the peckerhead   hmmm
But, I too am curious what Gnostikosis has to say   cheese

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Posted: 10 November 2010 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 130 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 10 November 2010 12:41 PM
GdB - 10 November 2010 11:41 AM
citizenschallenge.pm - 10 November 2010 11:24 AM

NO both do not carry the same authority!

The question was not addressed to you… But fair enough, I think the same, but I am very curious how Gnostikosis sees this.

GdB

well public forums are a bitch.
sorry - couldn’t hold back the peckerhead   hmmm
But, I too am curious what Gnostikosis has to say   cheese

Check out message #122

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Posted: 11 November 2010 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 131 ]
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Gnostikosis - 10 November 2010 09:09 AM

When you trust authority you are trusting a person. Not religion or science, a person who is supposed to be knowledgeable and someone you can trust to guide you. You have to know somebody to know that you can trust them. Otherwise it is blind faith.

. . . yea, and how often trust turns out to be misplaced.  smile

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Posted: 12 November 2010 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 132 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 11 November 2010 07:34 PM
Gnostikosis - 10 November 2010 09:09 AM

When you trust authority you are trusting a person. Not religion or science, a person who is supposed to be knowledgeable and someone you can trust to guide you. You have to know somebody to know that you can trust them. Otherwise it is blind faith.

. . . yea, and how often trust turns out to be misplaced.  smile

Unfortunately almost always. Probably why the Christian idea of everybody is a sinner is perceived as a reality to them. God is perfect so they figure they have one up on any concept of authority from non-believers.

Still for some reason I am still trying to fathom, people pick a person or thing or idea to be the holder of authority and cling to it even when it is not reasonable to do so.

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Posted: 13 November 2010 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 133 ]
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Gnostikosis - 10 November 2010 09:09 AM

I can’t fault people for whom they’ve accepted as their authority figure, however I can encourage a person to question that authority, to test the validity of it.

When you trust authority you are trusting a person. Not religion or science, a person who is supposed to be knowledgeable and someone you can trust to guide you. You have to know somebody to know that you can trust them. Otherwise it is blind faith.

So imagine you know just two kinds of people, religious on one side, scientists on the other side. For the rest both are equally nice people. Both are sure that they are right about topics like the (not) existence of heaven and hell, about the age of the universe, about the idea that AIDS is (not) a punishment for homosexuality. Which authority do you accept? On what grounds?

You can’t put religion and science on the same stance, just because their sociological status is the same, namely having power on basis of ‘knowledge’. There are inherent differences between religion and science, and you know them, even if you do not know all contents of them and evaluated them yourself.

GdB

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Posted: 13 November 2010 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 134 ]
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Gnostikosis - 12 November 2010 12:37 PM
citizenschallenge.pm - 11 November 2010 07:34 PM
Gnostikosis - 10 November 2010 09:09 AM

When you trust authority you are trusting a person. Not religion or science, a person who is supposed to be knowledgeable and someone you can trust to guide you. You have to know somebody to know that you can trust them. Otherwise it is blind faith.

. . . yea, and how often trust turns out to be misplaced.  smile

Unfortunately almost always. Probably why the Christian idea of everybody is a sinner is perceived as a reality to them. God is perfect so they figure they have one up on any concept of authority from non-believers.

Still for some reason I am still trying to fathom, people pick a person or thing or idea to be the holder of authority and cling to it even when it is not reasonable to do so.

Perhaps the authority offers “hope” (in spite of evidence). An ultimate equality for all, in heaven or what have you.

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Posted: 23 November 2010 07:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 135 ]
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I agree with Mrianna. I don’t know why any non-religious person should fear being accused of “believing” in something anyway. At least in regards to the term, believe or its derivatives. If you know something, you are guaranteed to believe that it is true. But merely believing in something does not guarantee that you know it to be true! I believe in certain scientific things because I am certain that I know they are true. But I also may believe in my friend’s authority meaning that though I do not know something (s)he has to say is absolutely true or not, I gamble that it may be true for practical survival.

We should actually be questioning how we come to know something and be sure that when we use words like belief, we qualify it with a definition of which particular meaning we intend. This would be cumbersome in most everyday arguments but if you want to get into particular discussions where clarity is important, defining your terms is necessary.

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