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Good Reference: Annotated Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon
Posted: 18 November 2009 06:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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I hate to repeat myself, Ray, but I believe it’s a waste of time discussing whether or not quotations from the Koran can be found on which to base your beliefs, because that implies that the Koran is, in any way, meaningful.  Before using quotations from it as the basis for your ideas, you have to show that it was really written by some supreme being rather than by a variety of men over the ages. 

Until you can convince me otherwise, I see the Koran and the Bible as merely collections of fairytales, morality stories, and unproven, pseudo-history written over centuries by priests of various types, but no input from any “supreme being” and therefore of little or no value. 

It is not my job to prove the Koran is wrong or absurd.  Since you accept it as truth, it’s your job to prove that it’s true.

Occam

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Posted: 19 November 2009 06:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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I agree with you Occam. Your position is rational.

It is the person who is making the claim that has to present evidence to back his or her claim.

If I say God exists and that Holy Koran is a book from God, then it is up to me to prove both of these statements.

Similiarly, one cannot just claim that Koran is absurd. One needs to prove it.

So far, I dont see any absurdity in the Koran.

Maybe I am wrong. Show me. I am open for re-conversion.

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Posted: 19 November 2009 08:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Meaningful?  How about useful?  Various holy scriptures may not agree with each other but an educated person’s being aware of exactly what billions (that’s thousands of millions if you’re of that bent) of earthlings claim to believe in and/or utilize for moral guidance as well as the basis for their national laws sometimes comes in handy, even if you sincerely believe those billions to be delusional.

Of course you will find that the words of the Koran is quite meaningful if you happen to be in a strict Moslem country and the Bible is quite meaningful if you are running for public office or seeking parole in many regions of the USA.  On the other hand, since these are elective delusions many Christian denominations manage to completely ignore much their claimed “Holy” scripture if it doesn’t fit with their own particular doctrine and I imagine the same goes for the rest of the religious universe.  The discription “only human” becomes clear in such context where obvious failing is quite evident.

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Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. - Seneca (ca. 4 BC –AD 65)

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Posted: 19 November 2009 05:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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Ray, I wasn’t implying that the Koran was absurd, just that its references to the existence of a god were unproven. 

I recognize that there is no way to either prove or disprove the existence of a god or a metaphysical world.  This means we have to accept a god and the Koran or Bible or reject them by faith.  While I’m a strong atheist, I have no proof for that position; I just have the belief based on my observations and reasoning, but ultimately on faith.  I would guess that you arrived at your beliefs by a similar set of reasoning and observations, which led you to Islam.

I have no criticism of those who believe in a god’s existence, but I am bothered when they try to convert others to their beliefs.  I have the same annoyance with Dawkins and others of his ilk who are demagogues in the cause of atheism.

Occam

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Posted: 19 November 2009 06:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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I wasn’t going to get involved in this, but at the risk of stirring trouble here… you want injustice?  You’ll leave Islam (something which could cause you a death sentence for doing so) if we can show injustice?

How about 4:3?  If men can have 4 wives, why shouldn’t women have 4 husbands? Seems a bit unfair to me.

4:15 As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).

Now that seems very inhumane to me.  Not seeing the light of day as they are confined.  Lewdness?  What is that?  Not wearing a gunny sack (burka)?  That is just plain silly, inhumane, dehumanizing, and degrading.  Such a thing contributes, IMO, to low self-esteem and if a man acts like a caveman, having his brain somewhere other than his skull, than it is he who should be to blame, not the woman, but rape is another topic.  However, it would seem women cannot testify without being locked up and imprisoned.  I don’t think it is for their safety either, because it appears to be a lifetime sentence.

4:24 “All married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”
You can’t have sex with married women, unless they are slaves obtained in war (with whom you may rape or do whatever you like).

This has been taken to mean a man can take captives for themselves, whether the woman wants them or not.  What is the difference between this and slavery?  None obviously, because in the next sentence you are free to rape slave women?  What is this?  1810?  Oh I forgot, this doesn’t take place in the U.S.  I don’t see much difference.  White women were just a step above slaves, but lower than men during slavery here in the U.S., so this is hardly any different and I find it offensive.

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Sorry, no one is in charge of me and this one really gets my goat.  I am not a slave to anyone and again, admonishing a woman for not bowing and cooing to her husband, father, or other male “in charge of her” is just plain wrong- again dehumanizing, degrading, barbaric.  Banishing me to another bed, away from such a man would be a pleasure.  However, scourging them is again wrong.  Flogging/whipping is of slavery.  Of course, Islam means to submit/submission and it dates back to Ishmael and his mother, who was a servant of Sarah, in other words a slave.  Seems to me, the Quran has the slave mentality, at least when it come to women.

Women are not children and if I can find it again, I do believe it also says women are stupid and they are children.

Here is Women’s so-called rights:  http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/says_about/womens_rights.html

A women is worth 1/2 a man.

Oh and if the man divorces a woman (why can’t the woman divorce him?)  Ah-yah will give him wives better than she is? Right.  Again, all of this seems like slavery days in the U.S. and as I said, I hardly see any difference.  It’s very offensive to me and I have no seen a Muslim male or female able to justify any of it.

That is just women.  I could go on about the injustice and prejudices towards Jews and Christians in the Quran, but I have probably said more than enough.  We’ll start with women in slavery first, using these few verses to start.  I have yet to be convincingly justifiable or rationalized yet.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 19 November 2009 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Mriana, don’t forget the black eyed virgins who are promised in heaven. Why don’t I get 19 Brad Pitts, Johnny Depps or Will Smiths?? Why do the men get to have all the fun!!

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Posted: 19 November 2009 08:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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lol Oh yes and I would love Michael Dorn, Jonathan Frakes, Avery Brooks, Lavar Burton, Robert Beltron, Will Smith, Johnny Depp…

You know, asanta, now that Morgan Freeman is God (From Bruce Almighty), do you think we could convince him to allow us to have as many men as men have women?  Equality in all things. Morgan doesn’t seem like he’s a bad deity.  What do you think?  For an old man, he’s not too bad looking himself and doesn’t seem to difficult to soften up a little.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 19 November 2009 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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Mriana - 19 November 2009 08:29 PM

lol Oh yes and I would love Michael Dorn, Jonathan Frakes, Avery Brooks, Lavar Burton, Robert Beltron, Will Smith, Johnny Depp…

You know, asanta, now that Morgan Freeman is God (From Bruce Almighty), do you think we could convince him to allow us to have as many men as men have women?  Equality in all things. Morgan doesn’t seem like he’s a bad deity.  What do you think?  For an old man, he’s not too bad looking himself and doesn’t seem to difficult to soften up a little.

Yes, I should have added him to my list! Denzel as well!! I value quality over quantity!!And I don’t get the fascination with virgins (although based on the age of the wives of Mohammad, we might be talking about 6-8 year olds although ‘nubile’ suggests they have at least reached puberty), if you want good sex, you certainly wouldn’t want a virgin, unless of course,  their god is compelling them (which I would find particularly abhorrent). Why is fertility important? What would you do with the children in heaven? Is this where the ‘nubile virgin’ supply comes from? Certainly heaven would be overpopulated by now. And why wouldn’t a good woman deserve great sex in the afterlife, without being a slave to a man??

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Posted: 19 November 2009 10:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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asanta - 19 November 2009 09:05 PM
Mriana - 19 November 2009 08:29 PM

lol Oh yes and I would love Michael Dorn, Jonathan Frakes, Avery Brooks, Lavar Burton, Robert Beltron, Will Smith, Johnny Depp…

You know, asanta, now that Morgan Freeman is God (From Bruce Almighty), do you think we could convince him to allow us to have as many men as men have women?  Equality in all things. Morgan doesn’t seem like he’s a bad deity.  What do you think?  For an old man, he’s not too bad looking himself and doesn’t seem to difficult to soften up a little.

Yes, I should have added him to my list! Denzel as well!! I value quality over quantity!!And I don’t get the fascination with virgins (although based on the age of the wives of Mohammad, we might be talking about 6-8 year olds although ‘nubile’ suggests they have at least reached puberty), if you want good sex, you certainly wouldn’t want a virgin, unless of course,  their god is compelling them (which I would find particularly abhorrent). Why is fertility important? What would you do with the children in heaven? Is this where the ‘nubile virgin’ supply comes from? Certainly heaven would be overpopulated by now. And why wouldn’t a good woman deserve great sex in the afterlife, without being a slave to a man??

I think the wonderful Morgan Freeman god would agree.  smile  After all he seems very wise and full of wisdom.  I would not want a child, esp when a real man is much better and more filling.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 19 November 2009 10:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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Mriana - 19 November 2009 10:30 PM
asanta - 19 November 2009 09:05 PM
Mriana - 19 November 2009 08:29 PM

lol Oh yes and I would love Michael Dorn, Jonathan Frakes, Avery Brooks, Lavar Burton, Robert Beltron, Will Smith, Johnny Depp…

You know, asanta, now that Morgan Freeman is God (From Bruce Almighty), do you think we could convince him to allow us to have as many men as men have women?  Equality in all things. Morgan doesn’t seem like he’s a bad deity.  What do you think?  For an old man, he’s not too bad looking himself and doesn’t seem to difficult to soften up a little.

Yes, I should have added him to my list! Denzel as well!! I value quality over quantity!!And I don’t get the fascination with virgins (although based on the age of the wives of Mohammad, we might be talking about 6-8 year olds although ‘nubile’ suggests they have at least reached puberty), if you want good sex, you certainly wouldn’t want a virgin, unless of course,  their god is compelling them (which I would find particularly abhorrent). Why is fertility important? What would you do with the children in heaven? Is this where the ‘nubile virgin’ supply comes from? Certainly heaven would be overpopulated by now. And why wouldn’t a good woman deserve great sex in the afterlife, without being a slave to a man??

I think the wonderful Morgan Freeman god would agree.  smile  After all he seems very wise and full of wisdom.  I would not want a child, esp when a real man is much better and more filling.

And, ummm fulfilling!! wink

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Posted: 19 November 2009 10:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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asanta - 19 November 2009 10:39 PM
Mriana - 19 November 2009 10:30 PM

I think the wonderful Morgan Freeman god would agree.  smile  After all he seems very wise and full of wisdom.  I would not want a child, esp when a real man is much better and more filling.

And, ummm fulfilling!! wink

Oh yes.  Hope you didn’t lose your drink on the monitor with that, um, typo.  Yes, that’s what it was.  A typo.  wink

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 19 November 2009 11:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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Mriana - 19 November 2009 10:55 PM
asanta - 19 November 2009 10:39 PM
Mriana - 19 November 2009 10:30 PM

I think the wonderful Morgan Freeman god would agree.  smile  After all he seems very wise and full of wisdom.  I would not want a child, esp when a real man is much better and more filling.

And, ummm fulfilling!! wink

Oh yes.  Hope you didn’t lose your drink on the monitor with that, um, typo.  Yes, that’s what it was.  A typo.  wink

ROFLMAO!!!

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Posted: 19 November 2009 11:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Ladies, ladies, I certainly agree with you, especially about the value of maturity and experience.  Did I mention that I’m 79?  LOL

Occam

P.S. Don’t you dare mention that my Alzheimer’s has probably caused me to forget everything I’ve ever learned.  rolleyes

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Posted: 19 November 2009 11:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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LOL  ROFLMBO!  Why I declare!  You dirty ole man.  wink  What Alzheimer’s?

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 20 November 2009 12:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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Occam - 19 November 2009 11:39 PM

Ladies, ladies, I certainly agree with you, especially about the value of maturity and experience.  Did I mention that I’m 79?  LOL

Occam

P.S. Don’t you dare mention that my Alzheimer’s has probably caused me to forget everything I’ve ever learned.  rolleyes

LOL!!! LOL I wouldn’t dare!!

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