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Good Reference: Annotated Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon
Posted: 30 May 2010 08:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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Occam - 30 May 2010 06:13 PM

Toombaru, I understand your beliefs and probably agree with quite a few of them, however, you don’t get anywhere by putting down the beliefs of others.  While you feel you have the only logical basis for yours, other people feel the same way about theirs.  As you mature, you may adopt a more measured, empathetic and objective understanding of how they got where they are.  It will help you relate to people more successfully and keep your blood pressure down.

Occam

 

How’s that been workin out for ya so far?

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Posted: 30 May 2010 08:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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toombaru - 30 May 2010 08:26 PM
Occam - 30 May 2010 06:13 PM

Toombaru, I understand your beliefs and probably agree with quite a few of them, however, you don’t get anywhere by putting down the beliefs of others.  While you feel you have the only logical basis for yours, other people feel the same way about theirs.  As you mature, you may adopt a more measured, empathetic and objective understanding of how they got where they are.  It will help you relate to people more successfully and keep your blood pressure down.

Occam

 

How’s that been workin out for ya so far?

 

We in the Islamic-Judeo-Christian realm have had two thousand years to try politeness.
Have you any idea how many deaths have occurred during that time that are a direct result of religious belief?

[ Edited: 30 May 2010 08:57 PM by toombaru ]
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Posted: 31 May 2010 01:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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toombaru - 30 May 2010 08:26 PM

How’s that been workin out for ya so far?

Well, it’s hard to say.  I’ve only had 79 and 3/4 years to try it, but it’s been great so far.  LOL

And, through my empathy, understanding, and “politeness” I’ve converted a fair number of peopls away from strong theism to weak or non-theism, and managed to give quite a few teen agers a good grounding in non-theist critical thinking.  How about you?

Occam

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Posted: 31 May 2010 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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Occam - 31 May 2010 01:33 PM
toombaru - 30 May 2010 08:26 PM

How’s that been workin out for ya so far?

Well, it’s hard to say.  I’ve only had 79 and 3/4 years to try it, but it’s been great so far.  LOL

And, through my empathy, understanding, and “politeness” I’ve converted a fair number of peopls away from strong theism to weak or non-theism, and managed to give quite a few teen agers a good grounding in non-theist critical thinking.  How about you?

Occam

 

I have found a great chasm between those who accept the delusion of religion and those who are able to exist in an ever-expanding unknowingness.
For many years I tried to coax those caught in the cult of religion into a more logical approach only to be answered with the empty eyes of the true believer.
These days I tend to lean to a more aggressive approach.
Billboards that say something like:


“Come on now…....You don’t really believe in a big guy in the sky do you?”

“If Christ could cure the blind….how come He can’t cure blindness?”

“Why is it that people never pray to regrow an amputated limb?”

“How is it again that Christ died for our sins?”

“Did God really sacrifice His only son if Christ went to heaven the very next day?”

“Do you really expect your god to alter the entire universe to answer your selfish little prayers….do you?”

“Have you ever considered how many life forms Noah would have to housed on that little ship?”

“Do you really want to be confined to a personality for eternity?”

‘Hey…..I hope God does a better job in heaven than He has on earth.”


Two thousand years of human thought has not been able to see through the convoluted mess of inherited religiosity.

Perhaps the only way to shake them out of their somnambulism is a cold shock of simple logic.

[ Edited: 31 May 2010 04:23 PM by toombaru ]
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Posted: 06 June 2010 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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And how exactly do your “billboards” differ from other means of “proselytization”??

It seems that a goodly number of atheists aren’t satisfied to believe a negative, but DO attempt to proselytize and overwhelm others with some bogus “PROOF” of their disbelief!

I am non-religious. Organizational religion is as absurd as any other “snake oil” salesman!! The Vatican especially, with all its gold and bejeweled trappings, and beautiful, but
incredibly expensive cathedrals.

Christianity was not built on the excesses of greedy men, but on a belief of “doing unto others ... “. Which is, at last, what all atheists believe!! Right!! No question, duh!!
——————————————————————
I am STRONGLY opposed to limiting anyone’s religious beliefs ... and, thereby, limiting their 1st Amendment freedoms.

I don’t mock the religious ... or their inane beliefs. To each his own. I’m far stronger than that. If, however, some delusional twerp makes a ridiculous statement concerning a SCIENTIFIC belief, they’re “toast”.
——————————————————————
Further, and most importantly, I follow NO ONE"S personal belief system. As Groucho said: “I would never join a group that would have me as a member”!!

I am no hypcrite!

[ Edited: 06 June 2010 12:03 PM by Analytic ]
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Posted: 06 June 2010 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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Analytic - 06 June 2010 07:48 AM

And how exactly do your “billboards” differ from other means of “proselytization”??

It seems that a goodly number of atheists aren’t satisfied to believe a negative, but DO attempt to proselytize and overwhelm others with some bogus “PROOF” of their disbelief!

I am non-religious. Organizational religion is as absurd as any other “snake oil” salesman!! The Vatican especially, with all its gold and bejeweled trappings, and beautiful, but
incredibly expensive cathedrals.

Christianity was not built on the excesses of greedy men, but on a belief of “doing unto others ... “. Which is, at last, what all atheists believe!!
——————————————————————
I am STRONGLY opposed to limiting anyone’s religious beliefs ... and, thereby, limiting their 1st Amendment freedoms.

I don’t mock the religious ... or their inane beliefs. To each his own. I’m far stronger than that. If, however, some delusional twerp makes a ridiculous statement concerning a SCIENTIFIC belief, they’re “toast”.
——————————————————————
Further, and most importantly, I follow NO ONE"S personal belief system. As Groucho said: “I would never join a group that would have me as a member”!!

I am no hypcrite!

 

Do ypu believe that everyone should be free to practice their own religion?

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Posted: 06 June 2010 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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toombaru - 06 June 2010 08:14 AM
Analytic - 06 June 2010 07:48 AM

And how exactly do your “billboards” differ from other means of “proselytization”??

It seems that a goodly number of atheists aren’t satisfied to believe a negative, but DO attempt to proselytize and overwhelm others with some bogus “PROOF” of their disbelief!

I am non-religious. Organizational religion is as absurd as any other “snake oil” salesman!! The Vatican especially, with all its gold and bejeweled trappings, and beautiful, but
incredibly expensive cathedrals.

Christianity was not built on the excesses of greedy men, but on a belief of “doing unto others ... “. Which is, at last, what all atheists believe!!
——————————————————————
I am STRONGLY opposed to limiting anyone’s religious beliefs ... and, thereby, limiting their 1st Amendment freedoms.

I don’t mock the religious ... or their inane beliefs. To each his own. I’m far stronger than that. If, however, some delusional twerp makes a ridiculous statement concerning a SCIENTIFIC belief, they’re “toast”.
——————————————————————
Further, and most importantly, I follow NO ONE"S personal belief system. As Groucho said: “I would never join a group that would have me as a member”!!

I am no hypcrite!

 

Do ypu believe that everyone should be free to practice their own religion?


All that’s really happening is the brain cells in the frontal cortex wondering what in the hell is happening “out there” in their own conceptual overlay.


LOL

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Posted: 07 June 2010 04:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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toombaru - 06 June 2010 08:14 AM

Do ypu believe that everyone should be free to practice their own religion?

People need to be free to determine what is true for them. You can’t force people into accepted your idea of what is true regardless of how correct you think your version of it is.

People IMO also need the freedom to express themselves, what they really think. If you don’t put it out there then there is little chance of anyone coming along to correct it.

The truth for me is dynamic. What is true changes from moment to moment. So no sense in me trying to force my ideas of what is true on anyone else. However I see nothing wrong in presenting the truth as you see it. We don’t have to agree. I don’t need to make you wrong so I can be right. As long as your are honest about what your understanding of the truth is there in no issue.

However if a person does open themselves up for discussion, then they should IMO, be willing to hear what the other person has to say.

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Posted: 07 June 2010 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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The last thing I would do is try to censor someone. I can deal with disagreement. I have a great deal of trouble responding to zealots and hypocrites.

You are neither.

And I agree with most of your Post.

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Posted: 26 July 2010 06:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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Advocatus, you said that another good site you just stumbled upon was http://www.godisimaginary.com  It gives 50 reasons not to believe in God, many of them quoting the Bible to prove it. I think though the first thing you must establish is where you might be pulling your sense of morality from,  and secondly we have things like cancer because of the fall, which is neither here nor there at this point.  You want to use logic and morality to define something as immoral, but humanism or evolution have no premise for ethics or morality. You are stealing your sense of morality from the Bible and more specifically from God.  As matter and only matter, biological masses, we have no reason to be upset over murder, rape, or theft; it just is.  When you start assuming things as right or wrong you are presuming that there actually is something as right and wrong and more importantly that it is an understood worldwide perspective that certain actions, deeds, and words are hurtful, wrong, and detrimental.  Men aren’t hailed for being cowards, people aren’t respected for cheating their employees on wages, we all understand why those are not right, but as an atheist what premise do you have to say those things are wrong; or that there is no higher Judge which actually says these things are right or wrong, and we all know what they are?

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Posted: 26 July 2010 10:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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Since you’re new here, Beamer, I’ll repeat the explanation I’ve given before.  Some animals are solitary, some are social.  Social animals, including humans, work together for the mutual benefit because cooperation is more efficient than competition.  Since it’s a survival advantage, animals which behaved that way evolved preferentially.  A basic pattern of working together in a society is to help each other and avoid hurting each other.  And that is the basis for morality.  Since the priests in early societies recognized this, they wrote various morality tales to encourage such bahavior.  And, to enforce it, they came up with an invisible overseer (a god) who would punish anyone who didn’t follow the rules. 

So, the bible is merely a set of these morality tales along with some nice mythology, quasi-history to keep people interested, and tie together the stories.

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Posted: 27 July 2010 06:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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But still, who would really care for other people groups who don’t share our religion customs or traditions.  why should we feel sorry or even say that what happened to the Jews during WW2 was anything that we should be sympathetic about or even say the Nazis were wrong.  it was an ethnic cleansing, by all evolutionary standards it wouldn’t have mattered, just a blip on the cosmic radar screen. for wars and, people to get involved in foreign wars specifically, we have to say that certain things are atrocities and are wrong.  you can’t prosecute someone for war crimes if what they thought they were doing was in the best interest for his race, his people; unless there were absolutes governing morality.  now I think we can all agree that what happened in Auschwitz and other concentration camps was awful, but where do societies, people groups, get this sense of universal goodness and badness.  people would have had to believe that such a thing even existed for it to be used on a social scale.  you can’t say that if someone right now raped a woman right outside your home you wouldn’t help her.  because you have, as an individual, the innate sense that the actions done to her are wrong. we don’t say the same about the animal kingdom. when a a pride of lions is overthrown and all the young are eaten and the lionesses are taken over by the new alpha lion. so how can you reconcile the survival of the fittest and the inclusion of the weak by protecting them through feelings of compassion and goodwill? they are contradictions, and just because it is something we learned from a herd type of instinct doesn’t make God obsolete.  you accept the multiplication table as factual, but you learned that from society. to say that religion is generally flawed because we learned it from someone else, or it’s promoted by some in a community doesn’t make it less true.

Occam - 26 July 2010 10:34 AM

Since you’re new here, Beamer, I’ll repeat the explanation I’ve given before.  Some animals are solitary, some are social.  Social animals, including humans, work together for the mutual benefit because cooperation is more efficient than competition.  Since it’s a survival advantage, animals which behaved that way evolved preferentially.  A basic pattern of working together in a society is to help each other and avoid hurting each other.  And that is the basis for morality.  Since the priests in early societies recognized this, they wrote various morality tales to encourage such bahavior.  And, to enforce it, they came up with an invisible overseer (a god) who would punish anyone who didn’t follow the rules. 

So, the bible is merely a set of these morality tales along with some nice mythology, quasi-history to keep people interested, and tie together the stories.

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Posted: 27 July 2010 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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Beamer, if you look at the reference that started this thread, you will find that wherever our sense of morality comes from, it certainly doesn’t come from the Bible. The Bible is filled with clearly immoral teachings, such as that one should stone someone to death for working on a Saturday, or stone to death a child for insulting his or her parents, not to mention the many examples of murder and ethnic cleansing that the Yhwh of the Bible promotes and endorses.

Further, the mere claim that some strong guy says that I should do X, Y or Z is of no moral consequence. The question of moral consequence is whether X, Y or Z are right or wrong to do, and that question is not answered with respect to the opinions of any person, no matter how powerful. (It is also clearly not answered with respect to the supposed opinions of fictional characters such as Zeus, Santa Claus or Superman, either). Plato realized this around twenty five hundred years ago, and it is the heart of his so-called Euthyphro argument.

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Posted: 10 August 2010 12:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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dougsmith you didn’t really answer my question you just rambled on about how the Bible is inaccurate and there are no moral absolutes, without any evidence to support your presuppositions. I understand as an atheist you personally don’t believe in a God, but please give some actual reasons as to why God doesn’t exist.  you briefly mentioned Plato at the end of your post but didn’t really seem to go anywhere with it.  so what, so some bad things happened.  as an atheist you shouldn’t really care. you are pulling morality from the Bible to try and disprove it, without giving credit for what it is. all things(historically speaking) that have happened that I or the Bible proclaims as “wrong” are actually wrong, but for me they are wrong because I believe in the Bible(Holy words of God).  you are saying they are wrong, but where would you be pulling this fantasy morality from.  what happened to survival of the fittest and we are just biological mass?  as an atheist you have to say “so what, who cares” and move on, you don’t get a say in what is or isn’t moral in the world.  you have no basis for morality.  just because you don’t like something that happens doesn’t mean it didn’t exist, just because you don’t like the way God does things doesn’t mean He is non-existent.

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Posted: 10 August 2010 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Wow. It seems from this post as though you didn’t read virtually anything I wrote. So I’ll have to take it sentence by sentence.

Beamer83 - 10 August 2010 12:21 PM

dougsmith you didn’t really answer my question you just rambled on about how the Bible is inaccurate and there are no moral absolutes, without any evidence to support your presuppositions.

Please re-read my post, since I did not say there were no moral absolutes, and I certainly didn’t “ramble on”. My post was rather short, actually. wink

Beamer83 - 10 August 2010 12:21 PM

I understand as an atheist you personally don’t believe in a God, but please give some actual reasons as to why God doesn’t exist.

The reason I don’t believe in God is that there is no evidence for his existence, and the evil in the world makes the existence of an all powerful, all knowing and perfectly good being a near impossibility.

Beamer83 - 10 August 2010 12:21 PM

you briefly mentioned Plato at the end of your post but didn’t really seem to go anywhere with it.

I went as far as I needed to go. Philosophers have known since his argument in the Euthyphro that morality cannot come from God. Indeed, it cannot come from the beliefs of any person. If God exists and is good, he is good because he behaves morally, which is to say, in accord with whatever moral law there might be.

Beamer83 - 10 August 2010 12:21 PM

so what, so some bad things happened.  as an atheist you shouldn’t really care. you are pulling morality from the Bible to try and disprove it, without giving credit for what it is. all things(historically speaking) that have happened that I or the Bible proclaims as “wrong” are actually wrong, but for me they are wrong because I believe in the Bible(Holy words of God).

Again, re-read my post. If I were “pulling morality from the Bible” I would have to believe (and so would you!) that it was right to stone people to death for working on Saturday (Ex. 35:2, Num. 15:32), to stone to death wayward children (Lev. 21:18-21), or that it was wrong to wear clothing of two different materials (Lev. 19:19) or wrong to shave your head (Lev. 21:5). Have you actually read the Bible to see what is in there? Indeed, the moral teachings of the Bible are largely farcical.

So, do you believe those things? Then you believe some things that are themselves clearly immoral. For it is immoral to stone someone to death for collecting firewood on Saturday.

And of course I should care if evil things happen. As the Euthyphro established, morality doesn’t come from God.

Beamer83 - 10 August 2010 12:21 PM

you are saying they are wrong, but where would you be pulling this fantasy morality from.  what happened to survival of the fittest and we are just biological mass?  as an atheist you have to say “so what, who cares” and move on, you don’t get a say in what is or isn’t moral in the world.  you have no basis for morality.

I pull them from my sense of what is right and wrong, the same way you do. Only, you take the silly way out by looking at an old book of fables rather than thinking for yourself. Assuming you really do believe that it’s right to stone someone to death for collecting firewood on a Saturday. If you agree with me that it would be immoral to stone someone to death for collecting firewood on Saturday, then indeed you and I are doing precisely the same thing, which is thinking for ourselves.

By the way, there are plenty of other holy books in the world with their own moral teachings. Why do you choose the Bible and not the Koran, the Pali Canon or the Bhagavad Gita? Have you read them to be sure that the right moral teachings aren’t in them?

Beamer83 - 10 August 2010 12:21 PM

just because you don’t like something that happens doesn’t mean it didn’t exist, just because you don’t like the way God does things doesn’t mean He is non-existent.

Huh? Again, re-read my post. I never said that the only things that existed were things I liked. However there is no reason to say God exists, much less to make the absurd claim that God had something to do with the Bible.

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