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Good Reference: Annotated Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon
Posted: 10 August 2010 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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What is more moral, doing good because it is the right thing to do, or doing good because you are scared of burning in an eternal ‘hell’ if you don’t?

What is more moral, NOT doing what is wrong because it is the wrong thing to do, or not doing wrong because you are afraid of burning in an eternal flame?

What is more moral, not believing in a being who has given no proof of its existence, or believing because you are afraid of burning in an eternal ‘hell’?
..and how do you know you have the right ‘god’? Do you get an ‘E’ for effort?

just before he was executed. Christians get a ‘get out of hell free’ card. You have no reason not to commit every immoral act you can dream of, as long as you beg forgiveness on your deathbed. Where is the morality there? 

WHY would I want to spend an eternity groveling at the feet of an insecure, jealous and petty tyrant? If someone acted on earth as ‘god’ did in the bible, we would call him/her a despot and conspire to get rid of him/her posthaste, and s/he would occupy a place in history books reserved for the likes of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

Why is it more important to grovel at the feet of this tyrant than to do good works? Where is the morality there.

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Posted: 14 October 2010 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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My basic position is, if there is a god who, after creation of the universe walked away (as described in some Eastern Deisms), and left man and the universe alone to sort it all out, then that would be a useless god, to which only the word Creator could be assigned. On the other hand, if god is present and everything is part of god, so then would the devil and demons and disease and misery be part of god, in which case he would be evil or at best neutral as to good or bad and therefore a useless God, to which only the word Creator could be assigned.
Either way, to set God as an example of moral authority, is equally useless and in fact false.

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Posted: 13 December 2010 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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toombaru - 30 May 2010 08:38 PM
toombaru - 30 May 2010 08:26 PM
Occam - 30 May 2010 06:13 PM

Toombaru, I understand your beliefs and probably agree with quite a few of them, however, you don’t get anywhere by putting down the beliefs of others.  While you feel you have the only logical basis for yours, other people feel the same way about theirs.  As you mature, you may adopt a more measured, empathetic and objective understanding of how they got where they are.  It will help you relate to people more successfully and keep your blood pressure down.

Occam

 

How’s that been workin out for ya so far?

 

We in the Islamic-Judeo-Christian realm have had two thousand years to try politeness.
Have you any idea how many deaths have occurred during that time that are a direct result of religious belief?

If I remember correctly more people have died in history from living and being part of a irreligious and godless country which waged wars but acted with much tyrany…

The world can witness several more crusades but it still wouldn’t amount to the killings done under irreglious and godless governments and countries.

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Posted: 13 December 2010 10:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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Affluenza - 13 December 2010 08:38 AM

If I remember correctly

No, you don’t remember correctly.

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Posted: 13 December 2010 10:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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Affluenza - 13 December 2010 08:38 AM

If I remember correctly more people have died in history from living and being part of a irreligious and godless country which waged wars but acted with much tyrany…

The world can witness several more crusades but it still wouldn’t amount to the killings done under irreglious and godless governments and countries.

Too bad you didn’t remember correctly!
Lenin, Stalin, and Pol Pot and Mao Ze Dong were atheist, but their murderous ways had NOTHING to do with religion, it had to do with political machinations power and paranoia. I could give you many, many names of people who are religious, and committed mass political genocide, but NOT in the name of god, such as: Slobodan Milosevic,  Benito Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Suharto, Jorge Rafael Videla, Czar Nicholas II, Kaiser Wilhelm II, Enver Pasha, King Leopold II…this list could go on for some time. My point is that although they were reliious, they did NOT kill in the name of religion, just as Lenin, Stalin and the other atheists did NOT kill in the name of atheism.
Hitler on the other hand, was christian and killed in the name of ‘god’, as did the FOUR ‘crusades’ and Torquemada, Inquisidor General of Aragón, the American Explorers who killed the Native Americans in the name of ‘Manifest Destiny’, which had religious overtones.

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Posted: 13 December 2010 10:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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George - 13 December 2010 10:11 AM
Affluenza - 13 December 2010 08:38 AM

If I remember correctly

No, you don’t remember correctly.

Hmm…I think I do. wink Hitler, Stalin and Pol pot come to mind…

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Posted: 13 December 2010 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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Hitler was not an atheist.  Guess that kind of throws a wrench into your theory, doesn’t it?

Edit: link is squirrelly to Wiki. But this is the page:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler’s_religious_views

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Posted: 13 December 2010 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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asanta - 13 December 2010 10:14 AM
Affluenza - 13 December 2010 08:38 AM

If I remember correctly more people have died in history from living and being part of a irreligious and godless country which waged wars but acted with much tyrany…

The world can witness several more crusades but it still wouldn’t amount to the killings done under irreglious and godless governments and countries.

Too bad you didn’t remember correctly!
Lenin, Stalin, and Pol Pot and Mao Ze Dong were atheist, but their murderous ways had NOTHING to do with religion, it had to do with political machinations power and paranoia. I could give you many, many names of people who are religious, and committed mass political genocide, but NOT in the name of god, such as: Slobodan Milosevic,  Benito Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Suharto, Jorge Rafael Videla, Czar Nicholas II, Kaiser Wilhelm II, Enver Pasha, King Leopold II…this list could go on for some time. My point is that although they were reliious, they did NOT kill in the name of religion, just as Lenin, Stalin and the other atheists did NOT kill in the name of atheism.
Hitler on the other hand, was christian and killed in the name of ‘god’, as did the FOUR ‘crusades’ and Torquemada, Inquisidor General of Aragón, the American Explorers who killed the Native Americans in the name of ‘Manifest Destiny’, which had religious overtones.

Hitler was not a christian…he didn’t practise christianity during his formative years…there are also multiple accounts from various people including Goebbels diary entries…

Funny how even with all those religious wars you list it still doesn’t come close to the amount of people killed in the name of atheism…

In the 20th century the award for who killed more most definately goes to atheism.

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Posted: 13 December 2010 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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Affluenza - 13 December 2010 10:32 AM

Hitler was not a christian…he didn’t practise christianity during his formative years…there are also multiple accounts from various people including Goebbels diary entries…

Funny how even with all those religious wars you list it still doesn’t come close to the amount of people killed in the name of atheism…

In the 20th century the award for who killed more most definately goes to atheism.

Hitler was a member of the Roman catholic church until his death. His soldiers ALL wore belt buckles attributing their actions to the wishes of ‘god’.

You didn’t even bother to read what I had written. NONE of those atheists killed in the name of atheism. There are plenty of religious who killed in the name of GOD.

You can find his quotes from Mein Kampf here:http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

[ Edited: 13 December 2010 10:51 AM by asanta ]
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Posted: 13 December 2010 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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asanta - 13 December 2010 10:48 AM
Affluenza - 13 December 2010 10:32 AM

Hitler was not a christian…he didn’t practise christianity during his formative years…there are also multiple accounts from various people including Goebbels diary entries…

Funny how even with all those religious wars you list it still doesn’t come close to the amount of people killed in the name of atheism…

In the 20th century the award for who killed more most definately goes to atheism.

Hitler was a member of the Roman catholic church until his death. His soldiers ALL wore belt buckles attributing their actions to the wishes of ‘god’.

You didn’t even bother to read what I had written. NONE of those atheists killed in the name of atheism. There are plenty of religious who killed in the name of GOD.

Even the wiki page you linked mentions Goebbels diary entries…I’m not the one not reading.

To be a member of any religion you need to be practising…there isn’t come document or membership card ones carries around.

Who cares about belt buckles? I have a statue of a buddha in my home does this make me a buddhist?

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Posted: 13 December 2010 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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Affluenza - 13 December 2010 10:19 AM
George - 13 December 2010 10:11 AM
Affluenza - 13 December 2010 08:38 AM

If I remember correctly

No, you don’t remember correctly.

Hmm…I think I do. wink Hitler, Stalin and Pol pot come to mind…

So what? The past hundred years were the most peaceful century of our human history. If you don’t believe me, google it.

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Posted: 13 December 2010 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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Write4U - 14 October 2010 08:08 PM

My basic position is, if there is a god who, after creation of the universe walked away (as described in some Eastern Deisms), and left man and the universe alone to sort it all out, then that would be a useless god, to which only the word Creator could be assigned. On the other hand, if god is present and everything is part of god, so then would the devil and demons and disease and misery be part of god, in which case he would be evil or at best neutral as to good or bad and therefore a useless God, to which only the word Creator could be assigned.
Either way, to set God as an example of moral authority, is equally useless and in fact false.

Morality is human idealism. If there is a God I doubt it would concern itself with human concepts of morality.
Men fight wars for the sake of their own ideology.

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Posted: 13 December 2010 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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Gnostikosis - 13 December 2010 11:01 AM
Write4U - 14 October 2010 08:08 PM

My basic position is, if there is a god who, after creation of the universe walked away (as described in some Eastern Deisms), and left man and the universe alone to sort it all out, then that would be a useless god, to which only the word Creator could be assigned. On the other hand, if god is present and everything is part of god, so then would the devil and demons and disease and misery be part of god, in which case he would be evil or at best neutral as to good or bad and therefore a useless God, to which only the word Creator could be assigned.
Either way, to set God as an example of moral authority, is equally useless and in fact false.

Morality is human idealism. If there is a God I doubt it would concern itself with human concepts of morality.
Men fight wars for the sake of their own ideology.

Then we agree that such a god would be useless to man?  What about disease, physical/mental disabilities, natural disasters where millions of innocents get killed, in spite of prayer and offerings?
If god cannot be bothered with that, I cannot be bothered with god.

[ Edited: 13 December 2010 02:59 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 14 December 2010 01:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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I understand where Beamer83 is coming from. I am an atheist who stands apart from others who claim absolute morality. I agree with the religious argument that without cause, there is no justification for right or wrong. I think that atheists try to save themselves from this with many justifications which are circular.

How I look at it is this: We obtain morality merely by making it up by consensus and social culture. There is no other reason. All other animals do it too. There is a ‘genetic’ component in that we start off by serving to protect or preserve ourselves. All moral goals would be based on this objective. It is first to protect oneself, then the environment close to oneself that is provisional to oneself. ... And then outward from there. Our morals are just agreements of behavior amongst ourselves that help us survive better.

What is right?  That which originally helps me to survive better.

              It becomes that which helps us to survive better when we get consensus.
So how would or should society deal with morality? That’s a moral question in itself. Hopefully, our political structures evolve best suited to serve most of the societies law making in its favor by evolving formal rules that represent successful morals.

P.S. With regards #96-98: Hitler, as I understood him, was secular even though he supported the Roman Church. His ideology favored a German mythology though. Regardless, the Nationalism of Germany was itself the religion. He was neither Christian nor atheist properly speaking.

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Posted: 14 December 2010 09:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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Write4U - 13 December 2010 02:47 PM

Then we agree that such a god would be useless to man?  What about disease, physical/mental disabilities, natural disasters where millions of innocents get killed, in spite of prayer and offerings?
If god cannot be bothered with that, I cannot be bothered with god.

I see God more as an adversary. All these things and more are obstacles to act as a catalyst to cause life to struggle to survive. If these things were taken care of there would be no need for intelligence to evolve, no need for critical thinking. People have a concept of a God who will wipe their back-side when they soil their diapers.

A God who will take care of all the “bad” things in life? I have no need of a God like that. I’d rather a God that makes life a living hell. To test what I am made of. My idea of God is one who will drop you in the fire and laugh as you struggle to get out. However if you manage to get out, then you can respect what you have been able to accomplish for yourself.

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