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Genetics and race
Posted: 03 November 2010 07:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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asanta - 03 November 2010 04:26 PM

Have you ever taken a look at some of the superstitious crap believed in both China and Japan? Those are really no different than believing in witchcraft. Yes, the end result of a witchcraft accusation is that it can get you murdered, but that doesn’t make it any more silly than other superstitions. I don’t see you ‘assigning’ a low IQ to those countries, nor have I seen a source of your ‘information’ listed.

You actually just proved here that religion (or superstition) is not the problem.

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Posted: 03 November 2010 09:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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George - 03 November 2010 07:45 PM
asanta - 03 November 2010 04:26 PM

Have you ever taken a look at some of the superstitious crap believed in both China and Japan? Those are really no different than believing in witchcraft. Yes, the end result of a witchcraft accusation is that it can get you murdered, but that doesn’t make it any more silly than other superstitions. I don’t see you ‘assigning’ a low IQ to those countries, nor have I seen a source of your ‘information’ listed.

You actually just proved here that religion (or superstition) is not the problem.

It doesn’t help though.

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Posted: 03 November 2010 10:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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George - 03 November 2010 06:00 PM

Occam,

Even if it were true that malnutrition plays such a big role in determining intelligence (it doesn’t), it still doesn’t change the fact that people in Uganda behave the way they do largely due to their low intelligence.

1) Where are you getting your facts on the ‘average’ intelligence of Ugandans
2) Please explain why Uganda would not have the same spectrum of intelligence variability as the rest of the world?

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Posted: 03 November 2010 10:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Gnostikosis - 03 November 2010 01:26 PM
Bruce Gorton - 03 November 2010 11:54 AM

Oh for crying out loud.

Something general like intelligence, its complex and very difficult to measure. I am not even sure we have a good definition of what intelligence is.

Specific beliefs such as a belief in witches? Not so hard. Note I am not saying without Christianity, none of this is specific to any one faith - I am saying without religion you wouldn’t have witch hunts, because people just wouldn’t believe in witches. I am not talking metaphorical witch hunts, you would likely still get those, I am talking about people who actually believe in witches.

And as difficult as it is to swallow, they believe in this not because they’re stupid, but because they were raised believing in it as part of their faith. It is why in the West, where it is no longer a part of the faith, people who try to kill others for being witches are almost unheard of. There are plenty of stupid people in the West, but that element of religion is mostly dead.

Actually there are a lot of people in the west who believe in witches. However witchcraft is socially acceptable and protected by law.

I am not saying you would do away with terrorism, or irrationality here, I am not saying that it would cure world hunger and solve every problem Africa has got - I am simply saying that without religion, people wouldn’t believe in witches, because of the very nature of a belief in witches.

I mean, saying religion is an environmental factor in a belief in witches, is like saying religion is an environmental factor in a belief in prayer. Would removing religion stop people praying for their kids to get better rather than taking them to a doctor? Well, yeah.

In this case I was only referring to religion being an environmental factor of intelligence.

A tolerance for religion and people of different religious beliefs would also seem to help the problem. That’s why we don’t kill witches anymore in the west, not because a lack of belief in witchcraft.

People believe in Wicca and magic - but not witchcraft. They don’t believe that there are people making pacts with evil spirits in order to caste curses on people, which is what a belief in witchcraft entails. Witchcraft in Africa is seen as something that can kill children - in the west it is seen as a somewhat kooky and harmless supersitition.

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Posted: 03 November 2010 10:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Asanta beat me to it, George, but your apparent sources of data are completely at odds with the general documented information from geneticists, psychologists, and neuroscientists.  I hate to be crude, but where the devil are you getting this alternative medicine type of strangeness?  (Ok, so I wasn’t as crude as the first words I was thinking of would have been.)

Occam

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Posted: 03 November 2010 10:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Occam. - 03 November 2010 10:41 PM

Asanta beat me to it, George, but your apparent sources of data are completely at odds with the general documented information from geneticists, psychologists, and neuroscientists.  I hate to be crude, but where the devil are you getting this alternative medicine type of strangeness?  (Ok, so I wasn’t as crude as the first words I was thinking of would have been.)

Occam

Care to rethink that statement, George? confused

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Posted: 03 November 2010 11:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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George - 03 November 2010 07:45 PM
asanta - 03 November 2010 04:26 PM

Have you ever taken a look at some of the superstitious crap believed in both China and Japan? Those are really no different than believing in witchcraft. Yes, the end result of a witchcraft accusation is that it can get you murdered, but that doesn’t make it any more silly than other superstitions. I don’t see you ‘assigning’ a low IQ to those countries, nor have I seen a source of your ‘information’ listed.

You actually just proved here that religion (or superstition) is not the problem.

No Asanta hasn’t. With Japan and China the beliefs could be traced to the hangover of their native religions and superstitions too. They also tend to be viewed as high IQ nations, so one can’t chalk the beliefs up to low IQ.

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Posted: 04 November 2010 12:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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George - 03 November 2010 06:00 PM

Occam,

Even if it were true that malnutrition plays such a big role in determining intelligence (it doesn’t), it still doesn’t change the fact that people in Uganda behave the way they do largely due to their low intelligence.

big surprise I can’t believe I missed this earlier.  What makes you think they necessarily have low intelligence?  I’m the third person who has asked you such a question, so it would seem sources and citations are needed greatly, George, because none of what you are saying, to my knowledge is true.

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Posted: 04 November 2010 07:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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asanta - 03 November 2010 10:01 PM

Please explain why Uganda would not have the same spectrum of intelligence variability as the rest of the world?

The answer is obviously evolution. The Europeans and the Orientals adopted to a new environment where intelligence played an important role. In Africa, the selection for higher intelligence was never that intense, as the African environment simply didn’t allow for that to happen. The habitat of Africa is very unstable, even today, and the mortality due to viruses, bacteria and parasites is simply too high for its peoples to adopt to what E.O. Wilson calls the K strategy. The r-K strategy refers to a scale where the r-type groups follow the reproductive strategy based the large amount of offspring and lower parental investment and the K-type follows the higher parental investment in less offspring strategy. As one can see everywhere in evolution, the less complex an animal’s brain is, the larger the amount of offspring: e.g., oysters have half a billion offspring per year, frogs two hundred, and great apes about one every five years. I know I am now comparing different species, but the r-K strategy is widely used here, even though Wilson originally created it to explain the differences within a species.

Now, the reason why the “out-of-Africa” groups switched to K-strategy was probably due to the more hostile conditions of Europe and northern Asia, i.e., shortage of food, cold climate, etc.


I could go on, but I would be probably just wasting my time…

[ Edited: 04 November 2010 08:30 AM by George ]
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Posted: 04 November 2010 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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George - 04 November 2010 07:06 AM
asanta - 03 November 2010 10:01 PM

Please explain why Uganda would not have the same spectrum of intelligence variability as the rest of the world?

The answer is obviously evolution. The Europeans and the Orientals adopted to a new environment where intelligence played an important role. In Africa, the selection for higher intelligence was never that intense, as the African environment simply didn’t allow for that to happen. The habitat of Africa is very unstable, even today, and the mortality due to viruses, bacteria and parasites is simply too high for its peoples to adopt to what E.O Wilson calls the K strategy. The r-K strategy refers to a scale where the r-type groups follow the reproductive strategy based the large amount of offspring and lower parental investment and the K-type follows the higher parental investment in less offspring strategy. As one can see everywhere in evolution, the less complex an animal’s brain is, the larger the amount of offspring: e.g., oysters have half a billion offspring per year, frogs two hundred, and great apes about one every five years. I know I am now comparing different species, but the r-K strategy is widely used here, even though Wilson originally created it to explain the differences within a species.

Now, the reason why the “out-of-Africa” groups switched to K-strategy was probably due to the more hostile conditions of Europe and northern Asia, e.i., shortage of food, cold climate, etc.


I could go on, but I would be probably just wasting my time…

Eugenics. You seriously buy into eugenics.

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Posted: 04 November 2010 07:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Bruce Gorton - 04 November 2010 07:10 AM

Eugenics. You seriously buy into eugenics.

Yes, just as I said, a waste of my time. I think I’ll stop right here.

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Posted: 04 November 2010 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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George - 04 November 2010 07:18 AM
Bruce Gorton - 04 November 2010 07:10 AM

Eugenics. You seriously buy into eugenics.

Yes, just as I said, a waste of my time. I think I’ll stop right here.

George, I shouldn’t have to point out the flaws in your reasoning. I could point out “Where the eff do you think humans evolved in the first place” to point to how stupid your environmental hypothesis is, I could also point out how sub-saharan Africa is a big place. I could point out how traditionally large families exist in a lot of settings, with no real bearing on IQ, but I am left wondering if you have applied any critical thinking to your own ideas.

Seriously, this is shockingly stupid shit, and you are telling me Africans are dumb.

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Posted: 04 November 2010 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Africans have the most widely varied DNA of any other place on earth. The country of Uganda is a political designation. There are many tribes in Uganda who may be less related to each other than they are related to you. How can you take all of these very distantly related peoples and lump them all into the same category on anything without coming across as a complete racist?

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Posted: 04 November 2010 08:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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George,

The problem is that you again and again use evolution theory to explain why life is not advantageous for others, be it Africans, women, or whoever that is not like you. With this you can defend any existing situation as it grew naturally. It removes any obligation to protest against injustice: injustice is just natural, it can be explained! It just fits too well to your standpoint that morality and free will do not exist, so why would you change when you can’t? You are who you are, naturally grown, and you are lucky to belong to the relatively small number of people for whom daily life is not a struggle for freedom or plain existence. And you want to keep it like that.

GdB

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Posted: 04 November 2010 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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George, you are treading a very fine line between being insulting and racism.  Would you please back off on such unsubstantiated statements concerning the various ethnic groups.

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