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Another look at 9/11
Posted: 06 July 2007 08:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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You can’t learn physics from 9/11 conspiracy sites.

My what a brilliant statement.

I went to Illinois Institute of Technology.  I applied to MIT and got an interview but not accepted.

I regard what happened to the WTC as a high school physics problem.

Why haven’t we gotten info on the distribution of mass on the building yet?  If you search the NIST reports for “oscillation” you will find “the natural frequency of oscillation” mentioned numerous times.  This frequency is determined largely by the quantity and distributions of steel and concrete.  The steel provides springiness and mass and the concrete provides inertial mass.  What is difficulty in getting the tons of steel and concrete on every floor?  The people that designed the building had to figure that out before they started digging the hole for the foundation.  Obviously every floor had to hold the load of all of the floors above it.

According to some sources there should have been 280,000 tons of concrete in each tower.  75,000 of those tons would have been in the floor slabs.  But where was the other 200,000+ tons?  How much was in the foundation?  How much was in the core and how was it distributed in the core?  Why should I believe a 200 ton plane could bring the building down if they won’t supply information that simple?

The steel in the building was guaranteed by UL for 3 hours at 2,000 degrees fahrenheit.  The jet fuel could only reach 1,800 degrees under optimum conditions.  An open fire does not make for optimum conditions.  The fire could not get enough oxygen fast enough to burn hot enough.  So why did the building collapse after 56 minutes.  How did the floors below the impact point allow the building to collapse so fast?  I would think this would be a scientific mystery to attract scientists and engineers from all over the place.  It is the silence from so many that is fascinating.

I have emailed one expert about one dumb essay supporting the NIST and he hasn’t responded in 3 weeks.

http://booksliterature.com/showpost.php?p=2382&postcount=5

psik

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Posted: 06 July 2007 09:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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psikeyhackr - 06 July 2007 04:16 PM

The WTC is not the only case in the world where one floor collapse makes the whole building collapse.

Name one in a steel frame building.

psik

OK.  The East Bay’s MacArthur Maze Bay Bridge

Plus, keep in mind that in 1971 New York City banned spray on asbestos for fireproofing in high rises. By the time the ban went into effect, asbestos had only been sprayed up to the 64th floor of the World Trade Center towers.  Herbert Levine, the inventor of spray-on asbestos for fireproofing, said of the WTC as they were building it, “If a fire breaks out above the 64th floor, that building will fall down.”  The first hijacked plane crashed through the 94th to the 98th floors of the World Trade Center while the second jet slammed into the 78th to the 84th floors.  None of the superior fireproofing asbestos was in any of those floors.

[ Edited: 06 July 2007 09:46 PM by Rocinante ]
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Posted: 06 July 2007 10:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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How many floors pancaked on that bridge?

How long did he say the fire would have to burn and how long did UL guarantee the steel for without fireproofing?

Have you found how many tons of steel were on the floors where the planes hit yet?  Why should that be difficult?

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Posted: 06 July 2007 10:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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psikeyhackr - 06 July 2007 08:52 PM

You can’t learn physics from 9/11 conspiracy sites.

The steel in the building was guaranteed by UL for 3 hours at 2,000 degrees fahrenheit.  The jet fuel could only reach 1,800 degrees under optimum conditions.  An open fire does not make for optimum conditions.  The fire could not get enough oxygen fast enough to burn hot enough.

psik

The jet and the resulting debris cut through the utility shafts at the North Tower’s core, creating a conduit for burning jet fuel.  Believe it or not, jet fuel is not the only thing on this planet that burns.  The fire was fed and intensified by all the combustible material inside the buildings (rugs, curtains, furniture and paper, etc.) with pockets of fire reaching 1832°F.

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

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Posted: 06 July 2007 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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Whoops, double post.

[ Edited: 06 July 2007 10:30 PM by Rocinante ]
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Posted: 06 July 2007 10:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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psikeyhackr - 06 July 2007 10:04 PM

How many floors pancaked on that bridge?

The point is that for years the tin-foil-hat-wearing nutjobs of the “Truthers” have screamed, “Fire can’t melt steel” when the fact is, is that it doesn’t have to melt steel, it only has to weaken it so that it is no longer structurally sound.

As for finding the exact same scenario building collapse…

You find me a building of the same size, mass and of the same construction type as one of the WTC towers with no asbestos where a fully loaded jet purposely slammed into it (revving its engines at the last second) high enough up so that firefighters couldn’t do a damn thing about the resulting fire, and then we’ll talk.

Now you find me one witnesses of the massive demolition teams drilling what should have been the thousands of holes in concrete and planting them with the hundreds of pounds of explosives and connecting them all with thousands of feet of wire (which normally takes days or even weeks on much smaller buildings) that would be required to pull off what the conspiracy theorists claim.  And then you explain to me how the jet slamming into that pre-wired building didn’t knock all the explosives, detonators and wires loose and ineffective.

[ Edited: 06 July 2007 10:32 PM by Rocinante ]
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Posted: 07 July 2007 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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The fire was fed and intensified by all the combustible material inside the buildings (rugs, curtains, furniture and paper, etc.) with pockets of fire reaching 1832°F.

Would you be so kind as to provide the source for that temperature.  The NIST doesn’t claim to have any steel where metallurgical analysis indicated that it reached that temperature.

I know they claim the jet fuel ignited other combustible material and that provided the fuel for the fire that collapsed the building.  But the reason thermite gets so hot is that it contains its own oxidizer and it is very fine and thoroughly mixed.  But all normal materials, including jet fuel, must get their oxygen from the atmosphere.  How could it get enough oxygen fast enough to maintain that temperature for long enough to weaken steel?  The other part of the problem is the quantity of steel.

Do you notice how I keep asking how much steel was on each floor?  Have you heard an answer to that question in SIX YEARS?  Have you heard the experts that claim the plane did it even ask the question?  We are talking about a building designed in the 1960’s.  Shouldn’t the original documentation for the building have info on the tons of steel and tons of concrete on every floor?

The south tower collapsed in FIFTY SIX MINUTES.  How can you figure out how hot it had to get for how long if you don’t know the quantity of steel on the floors where the planes hit? 

You can complain about truthers all you want but I don’t see them asking a question that obvious.

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Posted: 07 July 2007 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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psikeyhackr - 07 July 2007 01:52 PM

The fire was fed and intensified by all the combustible material inside the buildings (rugs, curtains, furniture and paper, etc.) with pockets of fire reaching 1832°F.

Would you be so kind as to provide the source for that temperature.  The NIST doesn’t claim to have any steel where metallurgical analysis indicated that it reached that temperature.

psik

The Editors of Popular Science quoted the number from NIST. 

OK, I’ve provided you with the source for that temp. 

I have also provided you with a concrete and steel structure that collapsed after being involved in a truck crash followed by burning automobile fuel—and it didn’t even have the several hundred thousand tons of weight on top of it to put undue stress on it like the WTC did!

Buy you have yet to provide me with one credible eyewitnesses from any of the thousands of people who were in and out of the WTC in the days and weeks before 9/11 who saw any of the demolition team drilling the thousands of holes that would be required, stuffing them with the hundreds of pounds of explosives and wiring it all together with thousands of feet of wire and detonators! 

You have also not explained how a plane smashing into such a pre-wired building with the resulting fire didn’t knock loose the explosives, detonators and how the fire didn’t destroy the wiring to the detonators. 

Until you provided me with those things, I’m afraid you have nothing left to provide to this discussion.

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

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Posted: 07 July 2007 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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Why don’t you go back thru my posts and point out where I said anything about a demolition team?

Considering how good you are at making assumptions I really don’t care what you regard as credible.

Due to the fact that the building stood for 25 years that is proof that every level of it was designed to hold the weight above.  Now why can’t you tell me the number of tons of steel and concrete on every floor?

I have the NIST reports burned to DVD.  The number 1832 only appears once in the entire report and is not a temperature.  Doesn’t it seem odd to you they could have FOUR SIGNIFICANT DIGITS.  1832 F is 1000 C and I am searching for that.  It appears 804 times but so far it is just a position marker on a graph or chart.  I have not found anywhere that NIST detected evidence of that temperature in the actual WTC fire.  I think you should check your sources better.

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Posted: 07 July 2007 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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Then why don’t you quit beating around the bush and simply state what you think happened.  It appears obvious that you don’t accept the jetliners smashing into the buildings causing structural damage followed by fire adding to the damage that eventually led to the buildings’ collapse.  So simply state what you think happened and who was behind it. 

I’ll go first: 

I believe Arab Islamic-fascists (and that word fits by every definition of the word fascism) in league with Osama bin Laden, in a loose organization known as al-Q’aeda, after they failed to bring down the WTC towers in 1993, came back in commerical jetliners (as Ramzi Yousef said they would), smashed those planes into the buildings.  The destruction from the initial impacts followed by the resulting fires, resulted in the buildings’ collapse. 

What do you believe happened.

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

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Posted: 07 July 2007 05:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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Oh, and why they did it! 

Here’s why I think the Arab Islamic-fascists did it:

To destroy the U.S. economy and to generally kill what they consider Infidels and try and rally other Islamic-fascists (Arab and others) to likewise kill Western Infidels.

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

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Posted: 07 July 2007 06:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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When you look at all the previous events setup by the Jihadim, 911 stands far above any in the degree of sophisticated organization. They had already bombed several structures in this effort to kill Americans, but the detonations were so badly timed that only local people were injured.

And since then, while the Jihadim in Europe have certainly killed and injured a lotta people there has also been a lot of remarkable snafus. As Zogby in an interview with a terrorist expert put it, “how could the gang that couldnt shoot straight, pull off something as complex as 911?”

These boys are not too smart, the kind of neurotic compartmentalization required to be loving fathers at home and murderers away results in PTSD, which we’ve been hearing about with the troops back from Iraq. We see how fractured their terrorist effort are, which is a direct result of the neurotic ability to compromise with others, even those more or less on the same side. they all have massive ego problems, and like so many others posting on 911 dont like to consider facts that contradict with the conclusions jumped to.

So far as I can tell, none of those who expressed doubts about what went on on 911, after looking into it, came down on the side of the official report. All the defenders of the official report have been defenders of it since 9/12; this is indicative of jumping to conclusions based on inadequate evidence. Any evidence provided now, will not be persuasive.

My argument here is not intended to change anyone’s mind about what happened on 911, simply point out the psychological profiles that typify various positions. To be sure, there are lotsa whackos ranting about the CIA, Bush, or whatever. Those who are more subject to group think, which is important in many careers, dont get that far out. But they are likewise unable to evaluate the evidence.

I find it noteworthy that after all this debate all these years, the system has not been able to convene a legal proceeding to settle 911 in a more credible way. The fact that they have not lends credence to those who are saying that the government is trying to hide the truth. Its not like we have not seen the government lie before.

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Posted: 07 July 2007 06:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Believing suspecting and knowing are three different things.  You can know that 2 + 3 = 5.  You can suspect there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.  But you can believe in Santa Claus.

As far as I am concerned believe means to accept something as true without sufficient evidence.  Therefore belief is stupid by definition.

I find it extremely difficult to accept that a 166 ton airliner with 34 tons of kerosene knocked down a 500,000 ton building in 56 minutes and making it collapse in less than 12 seconds.  How did all of that mass below the impact point just lose all strength?  The believers in the Osama Conspiracy are pretty absurd if they can’t understand the quantities and distributions of steel and concrete need to be accounted for to understand what happened to those buildings.  They expect everybody to get caught up in this emotional us versus them crap.

I decided I was an agnostic at 12.  The existence of this Christian country is based on genocide. 

I don’t give a damn about Christianity or Islam.

The laws of physics don’t give a damn about Islam, they don’t give a damn about Republicans and they don’t give a damn about America.  It’s gotten to the point that I just about don’t care who did what or why.  The fact that the nation that put men on the moon 38 years ago can’t figure out something this simple in 6 years is totally ridiculous.  But the fact that “the world renowned scientists and engineers” at NIST don’t even bother to tell us how much concrete was in the buildings in their 3 year, $20,000,000, 11,300 page, 1.03 gigabyte report is certainly icing on the cake.

Volume in drive H is NIST_Dimming
 Volume Serial Number is 8D32
-A61F

 Directory of H
:\

01
/15/2007  07:13 AM       390,624,090 Global Dimming.gvi
01
/15/2007  06:14 AM               938 GlobalDimming.gvp
01
/22/2007  03:55 PM         8,965,229 NISTNCSTAR1-1.pdf
01
/22/2007  03:57 PM         9,084,162 NISTNCSTAR1-1A.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:00 PM        13,403,039 NISTNCSTAR1-1A_AppendixesA&B.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:41 PM         8,363,877 NISTNCSTAR1-1A_AppendixesC-G.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:08 PM        11,615,938 NISTNCSTAR1-1B.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:10 PM         4,765,027 NISTNCSTAR1-1C.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:14 PM        25,052,971 NISTNCSTAR1-1C_Appendixes.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:14 PM           567,081 NISTNCSTAR1-1D.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:14 PM           533,912 NISTNCSTAR1-1E.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:15 PM           394,866 NISTNCSTAR1-1F.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:15 PM           267,607 NISTNCSTAR1-1G.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:15 PM         1,052,488 NISTNCSTAR1-1H.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:15 PM           236,217 NISTNCSTAR1-1I.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:16 PM           501,500 NISTNCSTAR1-1J.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:25 PM        60,195,365 NISTNCSTAR1-2.pdf
01
/22/2007  04:29 PM         6,880,619 NISTNCSTAR1-2A.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:06 PM           257,996 NISTNCSTAR1-2B_AppendixA.pdf
01
/22/2007  07:41 PM        36,044,735 NISTNCSTAR1-2B_Chaps1-8.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:05 PM        34,234,947 NISTNCSTAR1-2B_Chaps9-11.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:22 PM        10,167,107 NISTNCSTAR1-3.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:22 PM         1,340,439 NISTNCSTAR1-3A.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:23 PM         4,292,114 NISTNCSTAR1-3B.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:27 PM        15,712,269 NISTNCSTAR1-3CAppxs.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:26 PM        41,265,075 NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:28 PM         6,748,074 NISTNCSTAR1-3D.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:29 PM        30,649,532 NISTNCSTAR1-3E.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:30 PM         3,971,317 NISTNCSTAR1-4.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:31 PM        48,988,581 NISTNCSTAR1-4A.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:32 PM         9,210,313 NISTNCSTAR1-4B.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:32 PM        13,032,947 NISTNCSTAR1-4C.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:34 PM         4,068,940 NISTNCSTAR1-4D.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:35 PM        62,549,933 NISTNCSTAR1-5.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:56 PM       127,724,709 NISTNCSTAR1-5A_AppxD-G.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:00 PM       110,215,689 NISTNCSTAR1-5A_AppxH-M.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:49 PM       114,581,523 NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_1-8.pdf
01
/22/2007  05:52 PM        59,390,788 NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:03 PM        19,804,024 NISTNCSTAR1-5B.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:03 PM         5,057,924 NISTNCSTAR1-5B_AppxD-G.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:04 PM         6,137,652 NISTNCSTAR1-5C.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:04 PM         2,491,950 NISTNCSTAR1-5D.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:05 PM         5,569,132 NISTNCSTAR1-5E.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:06 PM        52,866,983 NISTNCSTAR1-5F.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:07 PM        24,171,050 NISTNCSTAR1-5G.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:09 PM        26,537,581 NISTNCSTAR1-6.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:14 PM        10,360,209 NISTNCSTAR1-6A.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:39 PM         7,090,310 NISTNCSTAR1-6B.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:40 PM         8,363,877 NISTNCSTAR1-6C.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:43 PM        16,929,539 NISTNCSTAR1-6D.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:43 PM         4,420,586 NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:44 PM           291,635 NISTNCSTAR1-7A.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:44 PM         1,303,058 NISTNCSTAR1-7B.pdf
01
/22/2007  06:44 PM         3,050,554 NISTNCSTAR1-8.pdf
01
/22/2007  07:30 PM        17,651,414 NISTNCSTAR1-8_AppendixesA-LFinal.pdf
01
/22/2007  03:53 PM        18,164,880 NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf
              56 File(s)  1
,507,214,312 bytes
               0 Dir
(s)               0 bytes free 

I’ve downloaded and searched it lots of different ways.  It looks like an overly complicated snow job to me.  But I still want a table showing the tons of steel and tons of concrete on every floor.  Why should that be difficult and why don’t the truthers demand it?  No, they have to play good guy, bad guy games and talk about pods and mini-nukes.

psik

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Posted: 07 July 2007 10:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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psikeyhackr - 07 July 2007 06:50 PM

Believing suspecting and knowing are three different things.  You can know that 2 + 3 = 5.  You can suspect there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.  But you can believe in Santa Claus.

As far as I am concerned believe means to accept something as true without sufficient evidence.  Therefore belief is stupid by definition.
psik

You are simply playing semantic tricks now in an effort to avoid answering simple questions that you are either afraid to answer or too ignorant to answer.  You have not yet answered a single one of my questions as to who you think did it, how or why.  When you decide to answer those simple questions, I would love to read them.

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Posted: 08 July 2007 01:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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You can call it semantic tricks all you want.

I DO NOT BELIEVE an airliner could knock down one of those buildings.

If you can’t comprehend that I don’t care that much, so be it.

I was in the draft lottery for Vietnam, my number came up over 300 so I didn’t get an all expense payed vacation there.  The US killed 3,000,000 Vietnamese.  9/11 is pretty trivial compared to that.  I watched that crap all thru high school and was told it was about this Capitalist/Communist BS.  But I noticed something peculiar about our so called economy in 1976.  The entire economics profession ignores what we lose on depreciation of durable consumer goods every year.  You buy a car it gets added to GDP.  The car wears out and you buy another one it gets added to GDP.  Where did that worn out car get subtracted from?  NOWHERE!  The US killed 3,000,000 Vietnamese so our economists don’t have to do their grammar school algebra correctly and then lie to us about it.

http://www.freethoughtforum.org/forum/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=503

I consider the planned obsolescence of automobiles and the $300,000,000,000+ that Americans lose on depreciation of that crap every year to be a bigger deal than 9/11.  So you will just have to excuse me if I don’t worry to death about what I know I can’t get hard evidence for.  But I think there is already enough evidence to prove that those airliners couldn’t have possibly been responsible for bringing those buildings down.  Why won’t the experts bring up the quantity of steel and concrete on every floor?  Because it would just make their claims look more ridiculous?

psikey

[ Edited: 08 July 2007 02:04 AM by psikeyhackr ]
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