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Posted: 13 December 2010 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Ay ! Thank you for saving me the time, Roc.  Was it Pipes that said no social theory had been MORE debunked than the notion of the poor, uneducated, misunderstood Muslim freedom-fighter?

Many of the bombers in Spain, the UK and other parts unknown have been educated and/or from middle-class backgrounds.  A lot of it has to do with the Muslim culture, which actually is a culture of death (tacitly supported by so-called “moderate muslims”, much as Confederates were supported by non-slave owning Southerners). 

Nice to see some actual critical thinking on here !

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Posted: 13 December 2010 08:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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I never said that they were frustrated because they were poor. Some were, like the most of the Madrid train station bombers (you’re completely off on this one, UlsterScots) but again, that’s not the major reason why they did it.

And yes, Rocinante, the majority of Arabs are Muslims. Reminds me of Dawkins joking when he said that wearing a mustache makes one a dictator.

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Posted: 17 December 2010 04:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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George - 12 December 2010 04:16 PM

Keke,

The “German” Muslim terrorists (9/11), the “Spanish” Muslim terrorists (Atocha train station in Madrid), and the “English” Muslim terrorists (London Underground) carried out the attacks because these young men were simply unable to fit into the European society. The reason for that is obviously racism…young Arabs are frustrated…

Jews have to live with bigotry against them.  But you don’t see Jews hijacking planes and flying them into buildings. 

Blacks deal with racism.  But you don’t see blacks strapping bomb vests on them and blowing up innocent civilians.

Gays are despised by many and denied some rights.  But you don’t see gays filling cars with explosives and blowing up city blocks full of pedestrians. 

Atheists are nearly universally reviled in society.  But you don’t see atheists taking school children hostage and cowardly shooting them in the backs as they scream, “Darwin Akbar!” 

All the above find it difficult to live in society in some manner or another.  All have reason for being frustrated.  But none resort to murder.

The same cannot be said for Muslims.  They are treated with kid gloves due to a combination of fear and political correctness.  But Muslims still show their proclivity for making explosive vests and car bombs for the express purpose of murdering as many non-Muslims as possible.  Quit making excuses for them.

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Posted: 17 December 2010 05:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Excellent points, Rocinante.  You did forget two. 

Women have been discriminated against in most cultures and are still so in many of them.  But you don’t see women putting bombs in their underwear when they get on planes.

Fundamental Christians believe that abortion is a sin.  But you don’t see them killing doctors who perform them.  (Whoops, skip that one,  smile  )

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Posted: 17 December 2010 06:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Occam. - 17 December 2010 05:32 PM

Women have been discriminated against in most cultures and are still so in many of them.  But you don’t see women putting bombs in their underwear when they get on planes.

Unless they are Muslim women!

Occam. - 17 December 2010 05:32 PM

Fundamental Christians believe that abortion is a sin.  But you don’t see them killing doctors who perform them.  (Whoops, skip that one,  smile  )

Excellent point.  smile  I am curious if George would be willing to admit that it is religious violence on part of the Christofascists who target and kill abortion doctors?  Or does he think it is just because of how society marginalizes them?  Or is it just the Muslim religion which gets a pass on its sanctioned killing of innocents?

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Posted: 17 December 2010 08:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Rocinante - 17 December 2010 06:54 PM
Occam. - 17 December 2010 05:32 PM

Women have been discriminated against in most cultures and are still so in many of them.  But you don’t see women putting bombs in their underwear when they get on planes.

Unless they are Muslim women!

Occam. - 17 December 2010 05:32 PM

Fundamental Christians believe that abortion is a sin.  But you don’t see them killing doctors who perform them.  (Whoops, skip that one,  smile  )

Excellent point.  smile  I am curious if George would be willing to admit that it is religious violence on part of the Christofascists who target and kill abortion doctors?  Or does he think it is just because of how society marginalizes them?  Or is it just the Muslim religion which gets a pass on its sanctioned killing of innocents?

How many abortion doctors have been murdered in the last 25 years by radical Christians?  Just curious.  I suspect very few on the whole.  Doesn’t mean it’s NOT worth noting, but usually the people who do are the same ones that still go around saying Timothy McVeigh was a radical, racist Christian (when plenty of evidence points to him being an atheist libertarian who at least accepted Nichols’ non-white g/f).

Does anyone know how many black babies have been aborted in the last 25 years?  Would you be cool with an abortion clinic which openly stated that they provide abortion services, particularly for black women?  If you are for abortion what would be the problem with that?  What if they only aborted female babies (like China)?

[p.s. had to weigh in, I’ve had both George and Occam on ignore for probably a year…looks from your post like it’s the same old stuff).

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Posted: 17 December 2010 08:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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UlsterScots432 - 17 December 2010 08:05 PM

How many abortion doctors have been murdered in the last 25 years by radical Christians?  Just curious.  I suspect very few on the whole.  Doesn’t mean it’s NOT worth noting, but usually the people who do are the same ones that still go around saying Timothy McVeigh was a radical, racist Christian (when plenty of evidence points to him being an atheist libertarian who at least accepted Nichols’ non-white g/f).

Does anyone know how many black babies have been aborted in the last 25 years?  Would you be cool with an abortion clinic which openly stated that they provide abortion services, particularly for black women?  If you are for abortion what would be the problem with that?  What if they only aborted female babies (like China)?

[p.s. had to weigh in, I’ve had both George and Occam on ignore for probably a year…looks from your post like it’s the same old stuff).

Good points. 

Abortion is one of those tricky topics.  For many people—on both sides of the issue—it is the litmus test.  All other things don’t even come close. 

I can see, and understand, both sides—which is probably why conservatives and liberals don’t like me very much! smile 

In the end, for me, it depends on how far into the pregnancy it is.  A few days or a week or so, I have no problem with a woman getting an abortion.  And my libertarian nature abhors the government telling a woman what she can or cannot do with her body.  At that point, her pregnancy is a potential for a human being.  But at some point along the line the potential turns into an actual human being.  At that point - somewhere into viability for the fetus I say no abortion.  The mother should have made up her mind earlier. 

I realize there are extremes on both ends.  On one side there are those who would not allow a Plan-B type pill for rape victims hours or even minutes after the rape.  These people are idiots.  At the other end of the spectrum are those who would allow for an abortion 9 months into the pregnancy.  These people are also idiots.  I understand that the middle “gray” area of when the fetus becomes viable is always gong to be a point of contention.  And as medical science keeps pushing that point of viability back, the time in which a woman can have an abortion will keep shrinking in my mind. 

As usual, education not legislation would help alleviate much of the abortion problem.  Abortion and the controversy surrounding it will never end.  But safe sex and contraception would go a long way in making abortions fewer and far between.  Granted, this is something the political right is just too hung up on to help the situation.

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Posted: 17 December 2010 08:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Rocinante - 17 December 2010 08:25 PM
UlsterScots432 - 17 December 2010 08:05 PM

How many abortion doctors have been murdered in the last 25 years by radical Christians?  Just curious.  I suspect very few on the whole.  Doesn’t mean it’s NOT worth noting, but usually the people who do are the same ones that still go around saying Timothy McVeigh was a radical, racist Christian (when plenty of evidence points to him being an atheist libertarian who at least accepted Nichols’ non-white g/f).

Does anyone know how many black babies have been aborted in the last 25 years?  Would you be cool with an abortion clinic which openly stated that they provide abortion services, particularly for black women?  If you are for abortion what would be the problem with that?  What if they only aborted female babies (like China)?

[p.s. had to weigh in, I’ve had both George and Occam on ignore for probably a year…looks from your post like it’s the same old stuff).

Good points. 

Abortion is one of those tricky topics.  For many people—on both sides of the issue—it is the litmus test.  All other things don’t even come close. 

I can see, and understand, both sides—which is probably why conservatives and liberals don’t like me very much! smile 

In the end, for me, it depends on how far into the pregnancy it is.  A few days or a week or so, I have no problem with a woman getting an abortion.  And my libertarian nature abhors the government telling a woman what she can or cannot do with her body.  At that point, her pregnancy is a potential for a human being.  But at some point along the line the potential turns into an actual human being.  At that point - somewhere into viability for the fetus I say no abortion.  The mother should have made up her mind earlier. 

I realize there are extremes on both ends.  On one side there are those who would not allow a Plan-B type pill for rape victims hours or even minutes after the rape.  These people are idiots.  At the other end of the spectrum are those who would allow for an abortion 9 months into the pregnancy.  These people are also idiots.  I understand that the middle “gray” area of when the fetus becomes viable is always gong to be a point of contention.  And as medical science keeps pushing that point of viability back, the time in which a woman can have an abortion will keep shrinking in my mind. 

As usual, education not legislation would help alleviate much of the abortion problem.  Abortion and the controversy surrounding it will never end.  But safe sex and contraception would go a long way in making abortions fewer and far between.  Granted, this is something the political right is just too hung up on to help the situation.

As a libertarian I also tend to be FOR anything that allows people to do whatever they want with THEIR body.  My issue with abortion—my trouble with it—is that it involves another life.  If you’ve ever seen a sono, or read even medical literature (where it is referred to as “your baby”, as written for women), it is a life.  The problem is, there is no analogous situation.  From a legal standpoint, we have nothing else like it.  Taking drugs, at least physically, only involves yourself. 

I think a famous feminist got it half-right when she said the oft-quoted, “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be legal and a non-issue” (or something similar).  I think if men could get pregnant, the laws would be such a big deal, nor controversial.  Abortion would be ILLEGAL, plain and simple. 

What I pose as a libertarian in this day and age is, not for the purpose of outlawing abortion, but couldn’t we say that if abortion be legal, than everything is permissible?  I don’t understand those people (who are sometimes even libs) who are all for the right to privacy, unless someone wants to smoke a cigarette (or in CA, smoke pot), or eat fast food, or take steroids.  If a woman can have an abortion under the theory that it is her body and her right to do with it as she pleases (which I tend to be for), then why cannot a man inject himself with steroids every week?  (notwithstanding private contracts which forbid such things, such as an athlete with the NFL, MLB, etc)?

I also believe in “constructive abortion” for men under the same theory that is often used for abortion (including a desire to not want to bring a child into the world, an inability to take care of a child, a desire to not have a child with the person of whom one conceived with…all reasons that have been floated aside from the physical aspect of a woman’s pregnancy).  It was actually tested a few years ago in Michigan, and he lost (the woman admitted lying about being on the pill, as I recall). 

Lastly, if one believes in abortion because they don’t believe scientifically it is a “life” (some vary on when this standard applies), and believe the fetus has no rights, then what would be the problem with a clinic advertising as being especially helpful to black women who want to exercise their option?  What if women started coming in large numbers saying they wanted to abort their daughters? 

I wonder how many female pediatricians who happen to be “pro-choice” would feel differently if at the moment the woman learns of the gender at the sonogram, and it is female, she says “well, I’m definitely aborting this one and trying again.”  If it is a value-neutral issue, then how can anyone respond emotionally to it?  It’s just another choice.  The reason behind the choice should not matter.

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Posted: 18 December 2010 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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IMO, it is not necessarily the religous who take these terrorist actions.  It is true believers of any stripe.  The non-religous back in the 70’s could be just as violent, remember the Weathermen, and the bullies from the John Birch Society.  The KKK may have used religon as a cover, but there motives were not based upon their religon but on the racist beliefs, which was of course reflected in their religion.

[ Edited: 18 December 2010 05:20 PM by garythehuman ]
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Posted: 18 December 2010 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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I envy Ulsterscot since, as a moderator, I can’t put him on ignore so I’m stuck with just skimming his posts as fast as I can to look for spam, nasty words, and ad hominum attacks.  Fortunately, I don’t have to try to make sense of them.  LOL

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Posted: 18 December 2010 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Ulster:

What if women started coming in large numbers saying they wanted to abort their daughters?

 

Follow what is happening in China, that is extactly what happened under the “one child policy.”

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Posted: 18 December 2010 05:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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UlsterScots432 - 17 December 2010 08:41 PM
Rocinante - 17 December 2010 08:25 PM
UlsterScots432 - 17 December 2010 08:05 PM

How many abortion doctors have been murdered in the last 25 years by radical Christians?  Just curious.  I suspect very few on the whole.  Doesn’t mean it’s NOT worth noting, but usually the people who do are the same ones that still go around saying Timothy McVeigh was a radical, racist Christian (when plenty of evidence points to him being an atheist libertarian who at least accepted Nichols’ non-white g/f).

Does anyone know how many black babies have been aborted in the last 25 years?  Would you be cool with an abortion clinic which openly stated that they provide abortion services, particularly for black women?  If you are for abortion what would be the problem with that?  What if they only aborted female babies (like China)?

[p.s. had to weigh in, I’ve had both George and Occam on ignore for probably a year…looks from your post like it’s the same old stuff).

Good points. 

Abortion is one of those tricky topics.  For many people—on both sides of the issue—it is the litmus test.  All other things don’t even come close. 

I can see, and understand, both sides—which is probably why conservatives and liberals don’t like me very much! smile 

In the end, for me, it depends on how far into the pregnancy it is.  A few days or a week or so, I have no problem with a woman getting an abortion.  And my libertarian nature abhors the government telling a woman what she can or cannot do with her body.  At that point, her pregnancy is a potential for a human being.  But at some point along the line the potential turns into an actual human being.  At that point - somewhere into viability for the fetus I say no abortion.  The mother should have made up her mind earlier. 

I realize there are extremes on both ends.  On one side there are those who would not allow a Plan-B type pill for rape victims hours or even minutes after the rape.  These people are idiots.  At the other end of the spectrum are those who would allow for an abortion 9 months into the pregnancy.  These people are also idiots.  I understand that the middle “gray” area of when the fetus becomes viable is always gong to be a point of contention.  And as medical science keeps pushing that point of viability back, the time in which a woman can have an abortion will keep shrinking in my mind. 

As usual, education not legislation would help alleviate much of the abortion problem.  Abortion and the controversy surrounding it will never end.  But safe sex and contraception would go a long way in making abortions fewer and far between.  Granted, this is something the political right is just too hung up on to help the situation.

As a libertarian I also tend to be FOR anything that allows people to do whatever they want with THEIR body.  My issue with abortion—my trouble with it—is that it involves another life.  If you’ve ever seen a sono, or read even medical literature (where it is referred to as “your baby”, as written for women), it is a life.  The problem is, there is no analogous situation.  From a legal standpoint, we have nothing else like it.  Taking drugs, at least physically, only involves yourself. 

I think a famous feminist got it half-right when she said the oft-quoted, “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be legal and a non-issue” (or something similar).  I think if men could get pregnant, the laws would be such a big deal, nor controversial.  Abortion would be ILLEGAL, plain and simple. 

What I pose as a libertarian in this day and age is, not for the purpose of outlawing abortion, but couldn’t we say that if abortion be legal, than everything is permissible?  I don’t understand those people (who are sometimes even libs) who are all for the right to privacy, unless someone wants to smoke a cigarette (or in CA, smoke pot), or eat fast food, or take steroids.  If a woman can have an abortion under the theory that it is her body and her right to do with it as she pleases (which I tend to be for), then why cannot a man inject himself with steroids every week?  (notwithstanding private contracts which forbid such things, such as an athlete with the NFL, MLB, etc)?

I also believe in “constructive abortion” for men under the same theory that is often used for abortion (including a desire to not want to bring a child into the world, an inability to take care of a child, a desire to not have a child with the person of whom one conceived with…all reasons that have been floated aside from the physical aspect of a woman’s pregnancy).  It was actually tested a few years ago in Michigan, and he lost (the woman admitted lying about being on the pill, as I recall). 

Lastly, if one believes in abortion because they don’t believe scientifically it is a “life” (some vary on when this standard applies), and believe the fetus has no rights, then what would be the problem with a clinic advertising as being especially helpful to black women who want to exercise their option?  What if women started coming in large numbers saying they wanted to abort their daughters? 

I wonder how many female pediatricians who happen to be “pro-choice” would feel differently if at the moment the woman learns of the gender at the sonogram, and it is female, she says “well, I’m definitely aborting this one and trying again.”  If it is a value-neutral issue, then how can anyone respond emotionally to it?  It’s just another choice.  The reason behind the choice should not matter.

Aren’t you assuming that women will abort without good and sufficient reason? In my life I have never met a woman who claimed that she wanted an abortion just for the convenience. Besides, where did you come up with the example of black women specifically? Is there a difference between black women and white in that respect? Any abortion clinic will equally serve black and white and I see no line-ups, even when a clinic advertises that it does perform abortions for all.
And I believe that one can legally inject steroids if it is a personal matter and not contractually forbidden by an employer or organization (liability issues). We also have dress codes and corporate image rules in work places. This does not infringe on a person’s rights. It prevents one from infringing on another person’s or corporate rights (smoking, indecent exposure, corporate image).
Abortion is a personal matter and has no impact on society as a whole. Now if we were talking about circumcision of infant males without their consent or medical necessity, that I consider to be illegal.

[ Edited: 18 December 2010 05:41 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 18 December 2010 05:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Write4U:

Abortion is a personal matter and has no impact on society as a whole.

I agree abortion is a personal matter; however abortions in total across a society can have impact on society as a whole in that it can reduce the total population, or result in more of the preferred sex of the progeny, as is the current situation in China.  That said, it is still better than abandoning babies after birth as ancient societies did when people did not want the baby, ie.. Moses, Oedipus.

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Posted: 18 December 2010 05:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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garythehuman - 18 December 2010 05:22 PM

Ulster:

What if women started coming in large numbers saying they wanted to abort their daughters?

 

Follow what is happening in China, that is extactly what happened under the “one child policy.”

Exactly.  Interestingly, Hilary Clinton says she is done with public office and will be spending the rest of her days promoted women’s issues.  I wonder if this will make her list?  Again, the dichotomy.  If you are for abortion, under the premise it is a woman’s body, and she has whatever right to do with it she wants (except take illegal drugs like pot, coke, steroids, and in some places, cigarettes under 21), then why does it matter what her reason is?

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Posted: 18 December 2010 05:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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garythehuman - 18 December 2010 05:40 PM

Write4U:

Abortion is a personal matter and has no impact on society as a whole.

I agree abortion is a personal matter; however abortions in total across a society can have impact on society as a whole in that it can reduce the total population, or result in more of the preferred sex of the progeny, as is the current situation in China.  That said, it is still better than abandoning babies after birth as ancient societies did when people did not want the baby, ie.. Moses, Oedipus.

I agree, but in China it is illegal to have more than a certain amount of children of either sex (population control), thus abortion is not only legal, it is mandated by the state (society) and pregnancy is illegal!
Which is the correct morality? The needs of society or the rights of an individual to choose?

[ Edited: 18 December 2010 05:51 PM by Write4U ]
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