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Posted: 18 December 2010 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 05:30 PM
UlsterScots432 - 17 December 2010 08:41 PM
Rocinante - 17 December 2010 08:25 PM
UlsterScots432 - 17 December 2010 08:05 PM

How many abortion doctors have been murdered in the last 25 years by radical Christians?  Just curious.  I suspect very few on the whole.  Doesn’t mean it’s NOT worth noting, but usually the people who do are the same ones that still go around saying Timothy McVeigh was a radical, racist Christian (when plenty of evidence points to him being an atheist libertarian who at least accepted Nichols’ non-white g/f).

Does anyone know how many black babies have been aborted in the last 25 years?  Would you be cool with an abortion clinic which openly stated that they provide abortion services, particularly for black women?  If you are for abortion what would be the problem with that?  What if they only aborted female babies (like China)?

[p.s. had to weigh in, I’ve had both George and Occam on ignore for probably a year…looks from your post like it’s the same old stuff).

Good points. 

Abortion is one of those tricky topics.  For many people—on both sides of the issue—it is the litmus test.  All other things don’t even come close. 

I can see, and understand, both sides—which is probably why conservatives and liberals don’t like me very much! smile 

In the end, for me, it depends on how far into the pregnancy it is.  A few days or a week or so, I have no problem with a woman getting an abortion.  And my libertarian nature abhors the government telling a woman what she can or cannot do with her body.  At that point, her pregnancy is a potential for a human being.  But at some point along the line the potential turns into an actual human being.  At that point - somewhere into viability for the fetus I say no abortion.  The mother should have made up her mind earlier. 

I realize there are extremes on both ends.  On one side there are those who would not allow a Plan-B type pill for rape victims hours or even minutes after the rape.  These people are idiots.  At the other end of the spectrum are those who would allow for an abortion 9 months into the pregnancy.  These people are also idiots.  I understand that the middle “gray” area of when the fetus becomes viable is always gong to be a point of contention.  And as medical science keeps pushing that point of viability back, the time in which a woman can have an abortion will keep shrinking in my mind. 

As usual, education not legislation would help alleviate much of the abortion problem.  Abortion and the controversy surrounding it will never end.  But safe sex and contraception would go a long way in making abortions fewer and far between.  Granted, this is something the political right is just too hung up on to help the situation.

As a libertarian I also tend to be FOR anything that allows people to do whatever they want with THEIR body.  My issue with abortion—my trouble with it—is that it involves another life.  If you’ve ever seen a sono, or read even medical literature (where it is referred to as “your baby”, as written for women), it is a life.  The problem is, there is no analogous situation.  From a legal standpoint, we have nothing else like it.  Taking drugs, at least physically, only involves yourself. 

I think a famous feminist got it half-right when she said the oft-quoted, “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be legal and a non-issue” (or something similar).  I think if men could get pregnant, the laws would be such a big deal, nor controversial.  Abortion would be ILLEGAL, plain and simple. 

What I pose as a libertarian in this day and age is, not for the purpose of outlawing abortion, but couldn’t we say that if abortion be legal, than everything is permissible?  I don’t understand those people (who are sometimes even libs) who are all for the right to privacy, unless someone wants to smoke a cigarette (or in CA, smoke pot), or eat fast food, or take steroids.  If a woman can have an abortion under the theory that it is her body and her right to do with it as she pleases (which I tend to be for), then why cannot a man inject himself with steroids every week?  (notwithstanding private contracts which forbid such things, such as an athlete with the NFL, MLB, etc)?

I also believe in “constructive abortion” for men under the same theory that is often used for abortion (including a desire to not want to bring a child into the world, an inability to take care of a child, a desire to not have a child with the person of whom one conceived with…all reasons that have been floated aside from the physical aspect of a woman’s pregnancy).  It was actually tested a few years ago in Michigan, and he lost (the woman admitted lying about being on the pill, as I recall). 

Lastly, if one believes in abortion because they don’t believe scientifically it is a “life” (some vary on when this standard applies), and believe the fetus has no rights, then what would be the problem with a clinic advertising as being especially helpful to black women who want to exercise their option?  What if women started coming in large numbers saying they wanted to abort their daughters? 

I wonder how many female pediatricians who happen to be “pro-choice” would feel differently if at the moment the woman learns of the gender at the sonogram, and it is female, she says “well, I’m definitely aborting this one and trying again.”  If it is a value-neutral issue, then how can anyone respond emotionally to it?  It’s just another choice.  The reason behind the choice should not matter.

Aren’t you assuming that women will abort without good and sufficient reason? In my life I have never met a woman who claimed that she wanted an abortion just for the convenience. Besides, where did you come up with the example of black women specifically? Is there a difference between black women and white in that respect? Any abortion clinic will equally serve black and white and I see no line-ups, even when a clinic advertises that it does perform abortions for all.
And I believe that one can legally inject steroids if it is a personal matter and not contractually forbidden by an employer or organization (liability issues). We also have dress codes and corporate image rules in work places. This does not infringe on a person’s rights. It prevents one from infringing on another person’s or corporate rights (smoking, indecent exposure, corporate image).
Abortion is a personal matter and has no impact on society as a whole. Now if we were talking about circumcision of infant males without their consent or medical necessity, that I consider to be illegal.

No, I am not assuming that.  And what do you call “good and sufficient reason”?  One woman’s reason, might be completely different from another woman’s reason.  You wouldn’t know, nor under the current theory, is it any of your business.  I have met women who have had abortions simply because they didn’t want a child (isn’t that the primary reason?).  I am not sure what you call “convenience”.  I mentioned black women because I knew it would illicit the response it did (with you).  [ http://www.blackgenocide.org/black.html ] Also, because it has been of discussion in the black community and I only became aware of it through a very good friend of our family (from an academic relationship), who has made impassioned pleas for reason on the matter.  My question is, does it matter if someone wants to have an abortion for a reason you might (any person might) find objectionable?  We have to look to the extremes to understand the social constructs in place.  If a white woman went to a clinic and said she thinks she might be pregnant with a Latino’s child, and she was not comfortable actually having a mixed baby and wanted an abortion is this ok?

Is it ok if she says she has had 2 girls and really wants a boy, and since it’s “pretty early”, she wants to abort the female fetus?  If you are for abortion, none of these reasons should matter.  What if she just isn’t ready to bring a child into the world, or isn’t prepared, is that ok?  That is sometimes proffered as the reason…and if that be the case, then why don’t we call those women what they are by another societal standard (men who feel the same way)...“Deadbeats”. 

I am questioning the standard paradigm for understanding the underpinnings of an accepted (and legal) practice.  In China, it is does every day.  Does it bother any pro-choice women that in China women SPECIFICALLY TARGET female babies?

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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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UlsterScots
I am questioning the standard paradigm for understanding the underpinnings of an accepted (and legal) practice.  In China, it is does every day.  Does it bother any pro-choice women that in China women SPECIFICALLY TARGET female babies?

It is the only way to control population. Females can bear children, males cannot. I am sure that China did not arbitrarily choose to restrict the female portion of the population, it was done for practical (moral?) reasons.
As to the argument that human life is “sacred”, this is just not true. Life is life, subject to all natural calamities and corrections as any other living thing. If a woman wants to abort (for whatever reason) it is her decision alone. It has nothing to do with morality.

[ Edited: 18 December 2010 06:06 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 05:47 PM
garythehuman - 18 December 2010 05:40 PM

Write4U:

Abortion is a personal matter and has no impact on society as a whole.

I agree abortion is a personal matter; however abortions in total across a society can have impact on society as a whole in that it can reduce the total population, or result in more of the preferred sex of the progeny, as is the current situation in China.  That said, it is still better than abandoning babies after birth as ancient societies did when people did not want the baby, ie.. Moses, Oedipus.

I agree, but in China it is illegal to have more than a certain amount of children of either sex (population control), thus abortion is not only legal, it is mandated by the state (society) and pregnancy is illegal!
Which is the correct morality? The needs of society or the rights of an individual to choose?

Well, you know that brings out the “objectivist” in me !  “Society” is not capable of having “needs”, haha.  Only a PERSON has needs.  But I get your larger point.

I am simply challenging the social construct, which is that abortions should be “safe, legal and rare” as many feminists say.  Why rare?  If you are ok with it and it is NOT a life (which you have to believe, elsewise it would be murder), then why would you care if it was rare or not?  Why would one care about the reasons or any demographical information? 

Why can’t men have “constructive” abortions and merely walk away because they are “not ready to bring a child into this world” and “not fully prepared for the responsibilities of parenthood” (both reasons have been cited for women).  The men would NOT be telling women what they can do with their bodies, or their lives…they would merely be saying that they have a right to terminate any life created from their own body (sperm).

If one agrees with abortion, then how would they feel about knowing the stats (again, see http://www.blackgenocide.org/what.html) and Margaret Sanger’s racial views?

I challenge this as a matter of critical thinking, an open discussion about a current issue which we know is legal (just as pot smoking is illegal).  I am not taking the position that it should be outlawed (although that would be ok if I was).  I lean toward individual rights—unqualified—and unmitigated. 

There isn’t a truth in the world I would wish unknown…(hats off to Mr. Jefferson, one of the greatest intellects of American history).

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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:00 PM

UlsterScots
I am questioning the standard paradigm for understanding the underpinnings of an accepted (and legal) practice.  In China, it is does every day.  Does it bother any pro-choice women that in China women SPECIFICALLY TARGET female babies?

It is the only way to control population. Females can bear children, males cannot. I am sure that China did not arbitrarily choose to restrict the female portion of the population, it was done for practical (moral?) reasons.

uhm, ok…of course, setting aside that the father loses a daughter….but ya.  (scratching head).

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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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UlsterScots432 - 18 December 2010 06:02 PM
Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:00 PM

UlsterScots
I am questioning the standard paradigm for understanding the underpinnings of an accepted (and legal) practice.  In China, it is does every day.  Does it bother any pro-choice women that in China women SPECIFICALLY TARGET female babies?

It is the only way to control population. Females can bear children, males cannot. I am sure that China did not arbitrarily choose to restrict the female portion of the population, it was done for practical (moral?) reasons.

uhm, ok…of course, setting aside that the father loses a daughter….but ya.  (scratching head).

Oh it’s the father who is the injured person? His rights are being violated? That’s presumptious. How about the father who gets his own daughter pregnant?

[ Edited: 18 December 2010 06:12 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:09 PM
UlsterScots432 - 18 December 2010 06:02 PM
Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:00 PM

UlsterScots
I am questioning the standard paradigm for understanding the underpinnings of an accepted (and legal) practice.  In China, it is does every day.  Does it bother any pro-choice women that in China women SPECIFICALLY TARGET female babies?

It is the only way to control population. Females can bear children, males cannot. I am sure that China did not arbitrarily choose to restrict the female portion of the population, it was done for practical (moral?) reasons.

uhm, ok…of course, setting aside that the father loses a daughter….but ya.  (scratching head).

Oh it’s the father who is the injured person? His rights are being violated? That’s presumptious. How about the father who gets his own daughter pregnant?

?  not to the exclusion of the mother, but if you are a father who wants your child, regardless of gender, yes, you are being injured when the state imposes an abortion of your child. 

Surely you are not contending that a father has less rights to his daughter than a mother, are you?  Wow…again, I am stunned by some of the statements on here.  You cannot really believe that from an intellectual standpoint, can you? 

And why the “right wing tactic” of bringing up a father who gets his daughter pregnant?  What does that have to do with two consenting adults, married, and living in China ? (again, do you NOT see how closely you mirror right-wingers with such arguments…“but what about gay marriage and gay men then wanting two husbands…” or, “instead of talking about gay marriage, let’s talk about gay men and little boys..cuz ya know, that’s what all of this is about!” (rolling eyes).  No wonder Ayn Rand got rid of all her liberal friends.  smile 

Sensing your argument doesn’t stand you then bring up a discussion outside the parameters of the initial theoretical modality of argument.

[ Edited: 18 December 2010 06:17 PM by UlsterScots432 ]
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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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UlsterScots.
Why can’t men have “constructive” abortions and merely walk away because they are “not ready to bring a child into this world” and “not fully prepared for the responsibilities of parenthood” (both reasons have been cited for women).  The men would NOT be telling women what they can do with their bodies, or their lives…they would merely be saying that they have a right to terminate any life created from their own body (sperm).

Get a vasectomy. Would you demand that women should have hysterectomies?

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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:16 PM

UlsterScots.
Why can’t men have “constructive” abortions and merely walk away because they are “not ready to bring a child into this world” and “not fully prepared for the responsibilities of parenthood” (both reasons have been cited for women).  The men would NOT be telling women what they can do with their bodies, or their lives…they would merely be saying that they have a right to terminate any life created from their own body (sperm).

Get a vasectomy.

why should he have to do that if women don’t have to?

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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:16 PM

UlsterScots.
Why can’t men have “constructive” abortions and merely walk away because they are “not ready to bring a child into this world” and “not fully prepared for the responsibilities of parenthood” (both reasons have been cited for women).  The men would NOT be telling women what they can do with their bodies, or their lives…they would merely be saying that they have a right to terminate any life created from their own body (sperm).

Get a vasectomy. Would you demand that women should have hysterectomies?

You changed what you wrote, but in answer, no, of course not.  A man’s choice to opt out of parenthood has absolutely no bearing on her body.  A theory of constructive abortion does not permit him to make ANY decisions for her, it simply allows him to maintain his own privacy and freedom of choice.

I’m not sure, intellectually, why you would even ask me that, based on anything I’ve written.  I would be against ANYONE being forced by another person (or a state) to do something.  If abortion is lawful and a woman can (let’s put it in terms used for men) “shirk” her responsibilities to love and care for a child…then why can’t an abortion be for any reason at any time (as a private matter) and why couldn’t a man participate in a constructive abortion whereby he also decides he is not ready for parenthood?

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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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UlsterScots
Surely you are not contending that a father has less rights to his daughter than a mother, are you?  Wow…again, I am stunned by some of the statements on here.  You cannot really believe that from an intellectual standpoint, can you?

Yes I do, as does the law. The mother has a greater right than the father, she chooses to accept or reject the pregnancy which occurs in her body. Are you proposing that the father has the right to insist a woman has his child, even if the woman is his daughter (it happens)?

[ Edited: 18 December 2010 06:40 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:34 PM

UlsterScots
Surely you are not contending that a father has less rights to his daughter than a mother, are you?  Wow…again, I am stunned by some of the statements on here.  You cannot really believe that from an intellectual standpoint, can you?

Yes I do, as does the law. The mother has a greater right than the father, she chooses to accept or reject the pregnancy which occurs in her body. Are you proposing that the father has the right to insist a woman has his child, even if the woman is his daughter (it happens)?

No, I am saying that a state-imposed abortion on a woman, that causes the loss of her daughter (in China) is just as much of a loss for a father as the mother.  Are you contending it’s not?  We already know that US Law says that a child will either exist (by being birthed) legally, based upon whether or not a mother wants the child.  Yes, in that manner, a father has absolutely no rights to any child, ever, anywhere at all (even if he feels the loss).  I am not contending that he has a right to force her to have a child.

We are discussing a situation where, as in China, both parents may very well want their child, even if SHE is a “daughter”.  The father has lost a child just as the mother.  Do you think men who lose children (in the womb due to complications) have less grief than the mother?

(I note that you asked me a question I’ve already answered, that I do not believe anyone can tell someone else what to do with their body, be it birth control mechanisms for men, or women).

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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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UlsterScots432 - 18 December 2010 06:27 PM
Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:16 PM

UlsterScots.
Why can’t men have “constructive” abortions and merely walk away because they are “not ready to bring a child into this world” and “not fully prepared for the responsibilities of parenthood” (both reasons have been cited for women).  The men would NOT be telling women what they can do with their bodies, or their lives…they would merely be saying that they have a right to terminate any life created from their own body (sperm).

Get a vasectomy. Would you demand that women should have hysterectomies?

You changed what you wrote, but in answer, no, of course not.  A man’s choice to opt out of parenthood has absolutely no bearing on her body.  A theory of constructive abortion does not permit him to make ANY decisions for her, it simply allows him to maintain his own privacy and freedom of choice.

I’m not sure, intellectually, why you would even ask me that, based on anything I’ve written.  I would be against ANYONE being forced by another person (or a state) to do something.  If abortion is lawful and a woman can (let’s put it in terms used for men) “shirk” her responsibilities to love and care for a child…then why can’t an abortion be for any reason at any time (as a private matter) and why couldn’t a man participate in a constructive abortion whereby he also decides he is not ready for parenthood?

You seem to forget that before a woman decides to have an abortion, it is usually after a great emotional struggle and discussion with those who are close (including the father). Don’t minimize the emotional trauma a woman experiences from such a decision. It is basically against her very nature, thus any such decision is not made lightly. I am afraid that you underestimate a woman’s sincerity and ability to make such a profound (to her) choice.

And another presumption is your reference to Right Wingers. I am a humanist and far from being a “right winger” and I have great respect for the intellectual capacity of a woman to make morally responsible decisions about her own well being and the well being of her offspring.
Any man can be a father (even the most irresponsible men). It is always the woman who has to commit many years of her life to the bearing and caring for HER child.

[ Edited: 18 December 2010 07:01 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 18 December 2010 06:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:49 PM
UlsterScots432 - 18 December 2010 06:27 PM
Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:16 PM

UlsterScots.
Why can’t men have “constructive” abortions and merely walk away because they are “not ready to bring a child into this world” and “not fully prepared for the responsibilities of parenthood” (both reasons have been cited for women).  The men would NOT be telling women what they can do with their bodies, or their lives…they would merely be saying that they have a right to terminate any life created from their own body (sperm).

Get a vasectomy. Would you demand that women should have hysterectomies?

You changed what you wrote, but in answer, no, of course not.  A man’s choice to opt out of parenthood has absolutely no bearing on her body.  A theory of constructive abortion does not permit him to make ANY decisions for her, it simply allows him to maintain his own privacy and freedom of choice.

I’m not sure, intellectually, why you would even ask me that, based on anything I’ve written.  I would be against ANYONE being forced by another person (or a state) to do something.  If abortion is lawful and a woman can (let’s put it in terms used for men) “shirk” her responsibilities to love and care for a child…then why can’t an abortion be for any reason at any time (as a private matter) and why couldn’t a man participate in a constructive abortion whereby he also decides he is not ready for parenthood?

You seem to forget that before a woman decides to have an abortion, it is usually after a great emotional struggle and discussion with those who are close (including the father). Don’t minimize the emotional trauma a woman experiences from such a decision. It is basically against her very nature, thus any such decision is not made lightly. I am afraid that you underestimate a woman’s sincerity and ability to make such a profound (to her) choice.

First of all, we are talking about China, whereby the STATE imposes an abortion (prospectively, at least in many situations) where NEITHER parent wants to abort the child.  We are also speaking of abortions due to gender.  Secondly, you DO realize do you not that feminists have attacked the very position you are taking (that women who have abortions experience emotional trauma).  I’m not contending you are not correct, but just take note of where the argument places you.  For years right-wingers and those opposed to abortion have argued that it has a deep and profound (and negative) impact on the women and girls who go through with it.  They have been lambasted for making such assertions (even when bolstered by women who’ve had abortions who attempt to talk other women out of it). 

How do I underestimate a “woman’s sincerity” and ability to make such a profound choice?  I think that a person has a right to their own body.  Men included.  I also believe that if a man wants to make a sincere and profound choice that he doesn’t want to have a child with a woman, for example if birth control failed (which btw, IS a reason women have abortions), then he has that right. 

Abortion is tricky for the very reasons we have discussed.  Is the fetus of a woman shot in the stomach on the way to an abortion clinic, going to be protected by the law when the person who shot her is charged with murder?  Does the child exist based solely on the contemporaneous feelings of the mother?  Is there any circumstance in which a pro-choice person would be against an abortion?

Does it matter that several times more black women abort black babies than white women?  Is that of concern?  or does it matter…is it just another set of “sincere” choices?

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Posted: 18 December 2010 07:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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UlsterScots432 - 18 December 2010 06:27 PM
Write4U - 18 December 2010 06:16 PM

I’m not sure, intellectually, why you would even ask me that, based on anything I’ve written.  I would be against ANYONE being forced by another person (or a state) to do something.  If abortion is lawful and a woman can (let’s put it in terms used for men) “shirk” her responsibilities to love and care for a child…then why can’t an abortion be for any reason at any time (as a private matter) and why couldn’t a man participate in a constructive abortion whereby he also decides he is not ready for parenthood?

You seem to forget that before a woman decides to have an abortion, it is usually after a great emotional struggle and discussion with those who are close (including the father). Don’t minimize the emotional trauma a woman experiences from such a decision. It is basically against her very nature, thus any such decision is not made lightly. I am afraid that you underestimate a woman’s sincerity and ability to make such a profound (to her) choice.

Ulster, men don’t die in childbirth. Write4U depends on the reason for the abortion. A woman who has been raped or a victim of incest, would have a very different struggle. Some other women have an abortion because the child will be born with devastating defects. Others have multiple births and want to reduce the number of children they are carrying in order to optimize the survival of the pregnancy. Others because a continuation of the pregnancy would cause the death of the mother. There are probably (at least) one hundred reasons a woman would get an abortion. I have seen women terminate for many, many reasons and have just witnessed a seventh mother die in childbirth (in my 30 year career), luckily, the child survived…barely.
Edited to add a /quote symbol.

[ Edited: 18 December 2010 07:30 PM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 18 December 2010 07:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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UlsterScots
Abortion is tricky for the very reasons we have discussed.  Is the fetus of a woman shot in the stomach on the way to an abortion clinic, going to be protected by the law when the person who shot her is charged with murder?  Does the child exist based solely on the contemporaneous feelings of the mother?

As far as I know when there is a choice to be made, the woman’s life trumps that of the baby.

Is there any circumstance in which a pro-choice person would be against an abortion?

That is a straw man argument. No one advocates for abortion, only for the right to have one!

Does it matter that several times more black women abort black babies than white women?  Is that of concern?  or does it matter…is it just another set of “sincere” choices

Technically it does not matter. If black women have more abortions it is due from their socio economic environment and I am sure that under their circumstance it was a sincere and possibly responsible choice. If we want to address this issue, lets figure out socio economic equality among the population. Financially comfortable black women would not abort any more than financially comfortable white women.

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