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Posted: 18 December 2010 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 07:21 PM

UlsterScots
Abortion is tricky for the very reasons we have discussed.  Is the fetus of a woman shot in the stomach on the way to an abortion clinic, going to be protected by the law when the person who shot her is charged with murder?  Does the child exist based solely on the contemporaneous feelings of the mother?

As far as I know when there is a choice to be made, the woman’s life trumps that of the baby.

Is there any circumstance in which a pro-choice person would be against an abortion?

That is a straw man argument. No one advocates for abortion, only for the right to have one!

Does it matter that several times more black women abort black babies than white women?  Is that of concern?  or does it matter…is it just another set of “sincere” choices

Technically it does not matter. If black women have more abortions it is due from their socio economic environment and I am sure that under their circumstance it was a sincere and possibly responsible choice. If we want to address this issue, lets figure out socio economic equality among the population. Financially comfortable black women would not abort any more than financially comfortable white women.

I don’t think it’s a straw man argument, the right to have one, goes to the issue of actually HAVING one.  I agree, technically it does not matter.  I believe ultimately, people have a right to their own bodies, however, I believe children belong just as much to the father as the mother, so as in the case with China, the “loss” (as it could ever be defined) is just as great for the father as the mother, although the intrusive act is upon the mother (that being a major difference).

Clearly, a father has as much right to his child as a mother, once born.  The way the law is, the right to be born is up to the mother (the “host” as it were).  If a third party takes that life away, when a woman did not want that life taken away (such as the woman who cut out another woman’s baby a few years ago), then can we actually say that is murder? (because that would be attributed life to the unborn and making it clear their “status” is dependent on the woman’s subjective view of their right to be born).

Good discussion. 

I think you might find this Black woman’s perspective intersting: http://thefreshxpress.com/2010/03/21st-century-genocide-of-black-babies/. She points out, given that there are more PP clinics in black neighborhoods, that black women have more abortions (significantly more), and that white women are by numbers at least, more likely to be on welfare than black women (given that there are more of them), blacks wind up supporting white welfare babies with tax dollars versus the converse.  Scroll down and read the stats she came up with.  She seems to have at least thought it through.

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Posted: 18 December 2010 07:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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Asanta,

I recognize the various incentives, however I still believe that almost all of the decisions involve deep introspection, except perhaps from a forced pregnancy (rape), in which case a woman should certainly have the moral right to terminate this truly unwanted pregnancy.

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Posted: 18 December 2010 07:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 07:45 PM

Asanta,

I recognize the various incentives, however I still believe that almost all of the decisions involve deep introspection, except perhaps from a forced pregnancy (rape), in which case a woman should certainly have the moral right to terminate this truly unwanted pregnancy.

You at least are thinking it thru, Write4u.  I appreciate that. 

So…a man has a right to shove a steroids needle into his arse, correct?  We can agree on that?  A man has a right NOT to marry a woman, nor to “take care of” a child he has produced (except as compelled by state Child Support laws, which are unequally enforced and probably for other reasons, not constitutional [an argument for another time])...he has a right to work, to keep his earnings, to smoke pot and buy happy meals.  He also has a right to end his life when he chooses.  And he has a right to believe there is no afterlife and to be free from others who wish to force him to believe that.

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Posted: 18 December 2010 08:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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UlsterScots
Clearly, a father has as much right to his child as a mother, once born.  The way the law is, the right to be born is up to the mother (the “host” as it were).  If a third party takes that life away, when a woman did not want that life taken away (such as the woman who cut out another woman’s baby a few years ago), then can we actually say that is murder? (because that would be attributed life to the unborn and making it clear their “status” is dependent on the woman’s subjective view of their right to be born).

IMO technically one could only consider it murder of a human being if the fetus was viable and could survive on its own. However, killing anything living may be called murder. In that respect we are all guilty.

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Posted: 18 December 2010 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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UlsterScots432 - 18 December 2010 07:49 PM
Write4U - 18 December 2010 07:45 PM

Asanta,

I recognize the various incentives, however I still believe that almost all of the decisions involve deep introspection, except perhaps from a forced pregnancy (rape), in which case a woman should certainly have the moral right to terminate this truly unwanted pregnancy.

You at least are thinking it thru, Write4u.  I appreciate that. 

So…a man has a right to shove a steroids needle into his arse, correct?  We can agree on that?  A man has a right NOT to marry a woman, nor to “take care of” a child he has produced (except as compelled by state Child Support laws, which are unequally enforced and probably for other reasons, not constitutional [an argument for another time])...he has a right to work, to keep his earnings, to smoke pot and buy happy meals.  He also has a right to end his life when he chooses.  And he has a right to believe there is no afterlife and to be free from others who wish to force him to believe that.

Thank you for your kind words.  I don’t think we are that far apart.

But…. yes a man has a right to NOT marry, but if he does, he enters into a contract which includes the responsibility to “take care” of his offspring and the state has a right to demand that this man fills his obligation in accordance with his commitment.

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Posted: 18 December 2010 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 08:08 PM
UlsterScots432 - 18 December 2010 07:49 PM
Write4U - 18 December 2010 07:45 PM

Asanta,

I recognize the various incentives, however I still believe that almost all of the decisions involve deep introspection, except perhaps from a forced pregnancy (rape), in which case a woman should certainly have the moral right to terminate this truly unwanted pregnancy.

You at least are thinking it thru, Write4u.  I appreciate that. 

So…a man has a right to shove a steroids needle into his arse, correct?  We can agree on that?  A man has a right NOT to marry a woman, nor to “take care of” a child he has produced (except as compelled by state Child Support laws, which are unequally enforced and probably for other reasons, not constitutional [an argument for another time])...he has a right to work, to keep his earnings, to smoke pot and buy happy meals.  He also has a right to end his life when he chooses.  And he has a right to believe there is no afterlife and to be free from others who wish to force him to believe that.

Thank you for your kind words.  I don’t think we are that far apart.

But…. yes a man has a right to NOT marry, but if he does, he enters into a contract which includes the responsibility to “take care” of his offspring and the state has a right to demand that this man fills his obligation in accordance with his commitment.

A contract to take care of one’s child exists, legally (although mostly for men) regardless of a marital contract.  Again, probably larger discussions for other times (the highest percentage of deadbeats are women…).  The “constructive abortion” issue was raised in a Michigan case a couple years ago where, from what I recall, the woman admitted to lying about being on birth control (in court), and admitted the man had been clear he did not want to have children.  In other words, he believed he had entered into a consensual contract with another adult that she would take care of B/c (just as men often do with condoms, which can break, and a woman can have an abortion).  He sued stating the same reason as Roe (with the exception of the “it’s my body” argument) and lost.  His claim was that he had a right to NOT have a baby for the same reasons a woman can (such as the morning after pill, if a women thinks she might be pregnant and doesn’t want a child…which IS a reason women have abortions btw).

I think we will see more of those challenges.

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Posted: 18 December 2010 10:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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Write4U - 18 December 2010 07:45 PM

Asanta,

I recognize the various incentives, however I still believe that almost all of the decisions involve deep introspection, except perhaps from a forced pregnancy (rape), in which case a woman should certainly have the moral right to terminate this truly unwanted pregnancy.

Yes, I am sure each and every one of them do…even the rapes.

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Posted: 18 December 2010 10:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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UlsterScots432 - 18 December 2010 07:32 PM

I think you might find this Black woman’s perspective intersting: http://thefreshxpress.com/2010/03/21st-century-genocide-of-black-babies/. She points out, given that there are more PP clinics in black neighborhoods, that black women have more abortions (significantly more), and that white women are by numbers at least, more likely to be on welfare than black women (given that there are more of them), blacks wind up supporting white welfare babies with tax dollars versus the converse.  Scroll down and read the stats she came up with.  She seems to have at least thought it through.

She thought it through, but her conclusions are incorrect. Margaret Sanger WAS a racist. That is a well known fact. It is a strawman argument to use that as an argument against Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood’s mission is family planning, and as such, they are probably THE major supplier of birth control and sex education in poor neighborhoods. You see Planned Parenthood in the poor neighborhoods for the same reason you see thrift shops there. That is where they are needed. The poor have the least access to birth control, and Planned Parenthood provides it for free. As a young woman with no health insurance I availed myself of their non-judgmental services. They provide education, contraceptives, counseling and prenatal care…as well as abortions. The women who use these clinics have few other options for those services. Margaret Sanger knew that the only way to reduce poverty, was to allow women to control their reproduction, to allow them to decide when and how many children they would have.

Ulster, there were too many cases of domestic abuse where the woman wanted an abortion, but the abuser would not allow it. There were men who prevented women from taking birth control as a way to control their lives. There were men who would not allow women to get their tubes tied, because they did not want more children. Even now, I have seen men who would not allow their wives to have a cesarean section when both the woman and child were in distress, and blame the wife when the child is born with anoxic brain damage (they are usually middle eastern families). You really should go to FFRF and read Anne Gaylors book about abortion. There is a good reason why the laws are in place to give the woman the decision. When she did not have the decision, the consequences were too often disastrous.

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