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I don’t believe in atheists
Posted: 19 December 2010 04:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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It really all breaks down to this. Does anyone here absolutely know that a God does not exist? If you say “no”, then you’re an Agnostic. What gets me, is that some people act like this is a bad thing.

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Posted: 19 December 2010 04:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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Write4U - 19 December 2010 04:23 PM
ExMachina - 19 December 2010 04:10 PM

I don’t entertain the idea that a God, fairy, Santa, Jehovah’s Witness, or leprechauns do exist. In my mind it’s all fairytale, but I’m not so arrogant to say that I’m 100% sure.

In the end, IMO, we pretty well know what it is not, but most all believe there is a fundamental causal condition to the origins of the universe. The search for that is neither Theistic nor Atheistic nor Agnostic. Don’t we call it “theoretical physics” which by its very nature allows for modification in the face of new evidence?

LOL  Seriously? Did you want to discuss astro-physics here? Quantum mechanics? The face of what new evidence? Evidence of a supreme being? Because if not…you’re in the wrong thread!

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Posted: 19 December 2010 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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VYAZMA - 19 December 2010 04:35 PM
Write4U - 19 December 2010 04:23 PM
ExMachina - 19 December 2010 04:10 PM

I don’t entertain the idea that a God, fairy, Santa, Jehovah’s Witness, or leprechauns do exist. In my mind it’s all fairytale, but I’m not so arrogant to say that I’m 100% sure.

In the end, IMO, we pretty well know what it is not, but most all believe there is a fundamental causal condition to the origins of the universe. The search for that is neither Theistic nor Atheistic nor Agnostic. Don’t we call it “theoretical physics” which by its very nature allows for modification in the face of new evidence?

LOL  Seriously? Did you want to discuss astro-physics here? Quantum mechanics? The face of what new evidence? Evidence of a supreme being? Because if not…you’re in the wrong thread!

Wow…me thinks you are reading more into my posit than I intended. Remember I consider myself to be atheist, not because I reject any and all possible fundamental causal conditions, but because I personally am convinced that whatever it is, it is not intelligent, much less has intentional purpose. I do believe we may well be able to “discover” a non-spiritual TOE which can explain the origins and evolution of this universe. Does that make me Agnostic?

[ Edited: 19 December 2010 04:52 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 19 December 2010 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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Write4U - 19 December 2010 04:47 PM
VYAZMA - 19 December 2010 04:35 PM
Write4U - 19 December 2010 04:23 PM
ExMachina - 19 December 2010 04:10 PM

I don’t entertain the idea that a God, fairy, Santa, Jehovah’s Witness, or leprechauns do exist. In my mind it’s all fairytale, but I’m not so arrogant to say that I’m 100% sure.

In the end, IMO, we pretty well know what it is not, but most all believe there is a fundamental causal condition to the origins of the universe. The search for that is neither Theistic nor Atheistic nor Agnostic. Don’t we call it “theoretical physics” which by its very nature allows for modification in the face of new evidence?

LOL  Seriously? Did you want to discuss astro-physics here? Quantum mechanics? The face of what new evidence? Evidence of a supreme being? Because if not…you’re in the wrong thread!

Wow…me thinks you are reading more into my posit than I intended. Remember I consider myself to be atheist, not because I reject any and all possible fundamental causal conditions, but because I personally am convinced that whatever it is, it is not intelligent, much less has intentional purpose. I do believe we may well be able to “discover” a non-spiritual TOE which can explain the origins and evolution of this universe. Does that make me Agnostic?

I don’t know what TOE means.
I guess it doesn’t make you agnostic(?)...whatever you want it to make you is fine by me. I thought we were talking about god. The existence of gods.
When we discover this non-spiritual TOE, which explains the origins of the universe, do you think it will put to rest the concept of gods?

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Posted: 19 December 2010 06:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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VYAZMA - 19 December 2010 06:49 PM
Write4U - 19 December 2010 04:47 PM
VYAZMA - 19 December 2010 04:35 PM
Write4U - 19 December 2010 04:23 PM
ExMachina - 19 December 2010 04:10 PM

I don’t entertain the idea that a God, fairy, Santa, Jehovah’s Witness, or leprechauns do exist. In my mind it’s all fairytale, but I’m not so arrogant to say that I’m 100% sure.

In the end, IMO, we pretty well know what it is not, but most all believe there is a fundamental causal condition to the origins of the universe. The search for that is neither Theistic nor Atheistic nor Agnostic. Don’t we call it “theoretical physics” which by its very nature allows for modification in the face of new evidence?

LOL  Seriously? Did you want to discuss astro-physics here? Quantum mechanics? The face of what new evidence? Evidence of a supreme being? Because if not…you’re in the wrong thread!

Wow…me thinks you are reading more into my posit than I intended. Remember I consider myself to be atheist, not because I reject any and all possible fundamental causal conditions, but because I personally am convinced that whatever it is, it is not intelligent, much less has intentional purpose. I do believe we may well be able to “discover” a non-spiritual TOE which can explain the origins and evolution of this universe. Does that make me Agnostic?

I don’t know what TOE means.
I guess it doesn’t make you agnostic(?)...whatever you want it to make you is fine by me. I thought we were talking about god. The existence of gods.
When we discover this non-spiritual TOE, which explains the origins of the universe, do you think it will put to rest the concept of gods?

TOE (Theory Of Everything), which would incorporate Universal causation.  It may not put to rest the notion of a God, but it sure would give me ammunition in any debate or challenge to disprove God…. cheese

[ Edited: 19 December 2010 07:01 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 19 December 2010 07:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Write4U - 19 December 2010 06:57 PM
VYAZMA - 19 December 2010 06:49 PM
Write4U - 19 December 2010 04:47 PM
VYAZMA - 19 December 2010 04:35 PM
Write4U - 19 December 2010 04:23 PM
ExMachina - 19 December 2010 04:10 PM

I don’t entertain the idea that a God, fairy, Santa, Jehovah’s Witness, or leprechauns do exist. In my mind it’s all fairytale, but I’m not so arrogant to say that I’m 100% sure.

In the end, IMO, we pretty well know what it is not, but most all believe there is a fundamental causal condition to the origins of the universe. The search for that is neither Theistic nor Atheistic nor Agnostic. Don’t we call it “theoretical physics” which by its very nature allows for modification in the face of new evidence?

LOL  Seriously? Did you want to discuss astro-physics here? Quantum mechanics? The face of what new evidence? Evidence of a supreme being? Because if not…you’re in the wrong thread!

Wow…me thinks you are reading more into my posit than I intended. Remember I consider myself to be atheist, not because I reject any and all possible fundamental causal conditions, but because I personally am convinced that whatever it is, it is not intelligent, much less has intentional purpose. I do believe we may well be able to “discover” a non-spiritual TOE which can explain the origins and evolution of this universe. Does that make me Agnostic?

I don’t know what TOE means.
I guess it doesn’t make you agnostic(?)...whatever you want it to make you is fine by me. I thought we were talking about god. The existence of gods.
When we discover this non-spiritual TOE, which explains the origins of the universe, do you think it will put to rest the concept of gods?

TOE (Theory Of Everything), which would incorporate Universal causation.  It may not put to rest the notion of a God, but it sure would give me ammunition in any debate or challenge to disprove God…. cheese

I hear ya! I say you already have enough ammunition. I know you do. Besides we don’t have time for this TOE. The notion of god will be put behind any scientific theories…it always is.
That’s your real ammo. Explaining that dynamic. That is the dynamic that allows “agnostics” to keep that possibility open.
2000 years from now, when the TOE theory is complete..the agnostics of that time will be right behind the theists who claim there is an originator for the TOE. The agnostics of that time will say, “I just can’t say that the theists are wrong.” “We can’t rule out the idea of a creator behind the TOE.”
You see Write? Especially when we already know that concepts of religion generally keep pace with what we already know about science…which should already be enough to dispel god concepts. I’m not just talking about physics, I’m talking about evolution, psychology, neuro-science, biology, math, history etc….

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Posted: 19 December 2010 09:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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Thank you Vyazma for your kind words.

I agree, the God theory (by its very vagueness) can be used ad infinitum for a god (any god) as the a priori causality for anything and an agnostic cannot discount that possibility completely.

[ Edited: 19 December 2010 09:34 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 22 December 2010 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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The way many sects get around the theory of evolution is to say that it is god guided to result in humans.  (What an egoist man is grin)

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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 22 December 2010 11:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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I haven’t read the whole thread but I think the original poster is fairly naive inasmuch as I don’t think many atheists say there definitively is no god, more assume there isn’t because there is no more evidence for one than Father Christmas, Superman, Leprechauns or faeries at the bottom of the garden ... I don’t believe in any of these at all, I assume there are no gods partly because of the lack of evidence but probably as much (maybe more) because the introduction of a god (and the consequent reasoning of, “god dun it”) invalidates our entire universe as an inherently explicable concept. In that sense I suppose you could argue we’re all agnostic but tend to think of agnostics as atheists who, for whatever reason, don’t like to be thought of as atheist but as something inherently less threatening.

Keke

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Posted: 23 December 2010 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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Hmmmm…..well it has been several days since I visited and posted here.

I hope you all know that when I said “I don’t believe in atheists” my tongue was planted in my cheek.

My son is an avid atheist and I have HUGE respect and love for him.
His intellect and reasoning is admirable and discussion with him, although at times heated changes my views.

So one could say I actually love atheists….well at least one.

Some of you make me smile by your comments that you are “offended by what I said”.....or “you think I am naive” or you “think what I posted is drivel”.....etc…....although I was also encouraged by some of the intelligent (without name calling) comments here also.

I do think the whole topic of God/god and religion is a valuable one. .....but I also think that there is a danger of over intellectualizing.

If there is some form of some intelligence that we are part of ....then whether we beleive in it or not does not matter.

I do not believe that God much cares what we do, because to him/it/her death and pain and our short lives are really inconsequential in the grand scheme of things… I also do not believe that there is a God that sits up with 8 billion computer monitors watching each and every one of us.

I guess internet forums are similar to how I get when I drive in my car…...I call other drivers idiots and incompetent fools, but in real life interaction I am much nicer…..I think it is much the same in internet forums…..so to those who pronounced what I wrote drivel….well…..Merry Christmas to you too. LOL

I mentioned my posting on this forum to two people…...a friend who is an avid Christian…..his comment was “how many atheist organizations organize fund raising for Haiti”.

The other person I discussed it with was my wife’s daughter, (I have a sneaking suspicion she is an atheist also….so that make a total of two atheists that I am very fond of).....in my discussion with her, I said that in order to know God, one has to first know oneself.

So really the topic that I find interesting is who and what are we.
Are we any different from animals.

I heard once somewhere that human have the gift/challenge to know themselves, and that our purpose is to explore who and what we are.

In the same way I would not rush to conclusions regarding God….I would not rush to conclusions on who and what we are.

Is it possible that we have a special place in this Universe.

When you look at the vastness of the Universe and you ponder the fact that to our knowledge we are the only species looking out from our little blue/green planet.
Of course it looks like we are a few decades of blowing it and leaving it to the octopus.

It is said somewhere that man is made in the image of God….this is a different statement than man is just a capable ape.

Anyways….thanks to all for who contributed..

PGPB

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Posted: 23 December 2010 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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pgpb
I mentioned my posting on this forum to two people…...a friend who is an avid Christian…..his comment was “how many atheist organizations organize fund raising for Haiti”.]

Just as many atheists give to a good cause as theists. They may do it individually, but the implied assumption that atheists are cold hearted scrooges is wrong.

It is said somewhere that man is made in the image of God….this is a different statement than man is just a capable ape.

Does that analogy mean that god looks like a human, or are we to interpret that our intelligence is equal to an omnipotent god?
If there is a god, to compare humans to it in any way is incredibly egocentric and vain.

We are Hominids and great apes are our distant family. Thus whatever created man also created apes, and everything else that is part of the evolutionary process. We KNOW about evolution, we know nothing of a god who would create man in his image.

But in science there is an analogy also. The universe works fractally, a function which uses self similar iteration (“in its own image”).

If there is a god and he is intelligent, omnipresent and omnipotent, what makes us think that he bears any resemblance to humans. Everything is made in god’s image, including the universe, stars, planets, rocks, snails, humans. We are all part of a grand planetary cycle, where each organism depends on another. If this designed and “operated” by a god, then we might say everything is made (designed) in god’s image.
The word “His” is an arbitrary selection. Might god not be female? After all if god created humans in his image, it would seem logical that the creative partner, the female (ability to reproduce), would be in the image of god.
No, if there is a god, it will be everything that we see around us.
And that begins to make sense. If you replace the word “His Image” with “Its image”, then you will find a philosophical basis for discussion. But to compare ourselves to god in any way is delusional and cannot be addressed logically.

[ Edited: 23 December 2010 03:57 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 23 December 2010 04:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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pgpb - 23 December 2010 12:37 PM

I mentioned my posting on this forum to two people…...a friend who is an avid Christian…..his comment was “how many atheist organizations organize fund raising for Haiti”.

Secular Charities for Haiti Relief

It really (really, really) didn’t take me long to find that so naive is probably about right ... in some ways I’m disappointed.

Keke

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Posted: 23 December 2010 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Kyuuketsuki UK - 23 December 2010 04:07 PM
pgpb - 23 December 2010 12:37 PM

I mentioned my posting on this forum to two people…...a friend who is an avid Christian…..his comment was “how many atheist organizations organize fund raising for Haiti”.

Secular Charities for Haiti Relief

It really (really, really) didn’t take me long to find that so naive is probably about right ... in some ways I’m disappointed.

Keke

Naive is right. There is very little difference between a child believing in Santa and an adult believing in a supernatural God that looks like humans.

But I am sure that there will be a complaint that none of those links are specifically atheist, so they don’t count. Theists want atheism to be organized as a religion. That is the only way to make the accusation that atheism is also a religion (even as atheists themselves do not see it that way), more specifically a religion against god. Then an atheist could be accused of being a part of an “organized” anti-god devil worshipping cult. How convenient.

[ Edited: 23 December 2010 05:48 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 23 December 2010 06:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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Disingenuous too..

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Posted: 24 December 2010 01:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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Write4U - 23 December 2010 04:34 PM

Naive is right. There is very little difference between a child believing in Santa and an adult believing in a supernatural God that looks like humans.

Agreed.

Write4U - 23 December 2010 04:34 PM

But I am sure that there will be a complaint that none of those links are specifically atheist, so they don’t count. Theists want atheism to be organized as a religion. That is the only way to make the accusation that atheism is also a religion (even as atheists themselves do not see it that way), more specifically a religion against god. Then an atheist could be accused of being a part of an “organized” anti-god devil worshipping cult. How convenient.

That’s stupid ... an atheist has no specific religious beliefs. It’s interesting ... it seems to me that about atheist organisations only real form under the banner of atheism when they are fighting the atheist corner, if an atheist formed a charitable organisation (not specifically concerning atheism) the last thing they’d do is label it as atheist. Religious organisations are quite the reverse and, although I concede that they can do good work, religious organisations working at disaster zones can almost be likened to vultures picking over the area for new (vulnerable) recruits.

Maybe that’s what Asanta was referring to with his “disingenuous” remark?

Keke

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