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I don’t believe in atheists
Posted: 24 December 2010 01:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Kyuuketsuki UK - 24 December 2010 01:35 AM
Write4U - 23 December 2010 04:34 PM

Naive is right. There is very little difference between a child believing in Santa and an adult believing in a supernatural God that looks like humans.

Agreed.

Write4U - 23 December 2010 04:34 PM

But I am sure that there will be a complaint that none of those links are specifically atheist, so they don’t count. Theists want atheism to be organized as a religion. That is the only way to make the accusation that atheism is also a religion (even as atheists themselves do not see it that way), more specifically a religion against god. Then an atheist could be accused of being a part of an “organized” anti-god devil worshipping cult. How convenient.

That’s stupid ... an atheist has no specific religious beliefs. It’s interesting ... it seems to me that about atheist organisations only real form under the banner of atheism when they are fighting the atheist corner, if an atheist formed a charitable organisation (not specifically concerning atheism) the last thing they’d do is label it as atheist. Religious organisations are quite the reverse and, although I concede that they can do good work, religious organisations working at disaster zones can almost be likened to vultures picking over the area for new (vulnerable) recruits.

Maybe that’s what Asanta was referring to with his “disingenuous” remark?

Keke

After calling it stupid you proceeded to agree with me. Can you identify which specific sentence you are referring to?

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Posted: 24 December 2010 02:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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Write4U - 24 December 2010 01:53 AM
Write4U - 24 December 2010 01:53 AM

After calling it stupid you proceeded to agree with me. Can you identify which specific sentence you are referring to?

No I meant that saying none of them was specifically atheist was stupid ... sorry mate, bad phraseology smile

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Posted: 24 December 2010 02:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Kyuuketsuki UK - 24 December 2010 02:09 AM
Write4U - 24 December 2010 01:53 AM
Write4U - 24 December 2010 01:53 AM

After calling it stupid you proceeded to agree with me. Can you identify which specific sentence you are referring to?

No I meant that saying none of them was specifically atheist was stupid ... sorry mate, bad phraseology smile

Keke

Yes, it would be a stupid, but effective strategy. A religious Theism in on equal terms with a religious Atheism. One must make a choice between the two.
But you cannot pose such choice to millions of people worldwide who coincidentally share the same philosophy which is usually arrived at by personal introspection. What choice can Theism demand from any of those different people? To form or become part of a religion?.cheese

[ Edited: 24 December 2010 02:38 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 14 January 2011 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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ExMachina - 18 December 2010 12:28 PM

I am an Atheist, and I BELIEVE that no God exists. I’m also an Agnostic, because I accept the fact that I may be wrong and that other possibilities may exist.

Exactly. I don’t believe in god(s) but I will never say “god does not exist.”  That would be equally as crazy as saying that god exists.

Mind you, I cannot think of anything that “god” could do to prove to me that he exists (I use “he” loosely here).  I know that the brain is limited in its capacity to understand, and it compensates a lot to fill in informational gaps (from, say, the limitations of our eyes to see only some bandwidths of light, or the ears to hear only some wavelengths in sound, or even our lack of knowledge of how things work).  Any “religious experience” I might have, I would be more likely to write it off as a manifestation of the brain’s compensation system.  For example, if I were to see an angel or a ghost, I would probably check myself into the hospital for a brain scan, not go give the pope a handy and tell him he was right the whole time.

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I’m atheist, not agnostic. To say that god is unknowable is to say that god is.

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Posted: 14 January 2011 01:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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I’m pretty much in line with what you’re saying egran. Unfortunately, some of the people on this forum, still believe that you cannot be both Atheist and Agnostic, even when I showed hard evidence point out that you can be both. It’s frustrating when dealing with people who completely ignore solid evidence and still maintain that they are right.

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Posted: 14 January 2011 01:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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ExMachina - 14 January 2011 01:29 PM

I’m pretty much in line with what you’re saying egran. Unfortunately, some of the people on this forum, still believe that you cannot be both Atheist and Agnostic, even when I showed hard evidence point out that you can be both. It’s frustrating when dealing with people who completely ignore solid evidence and still maintain that they are right.

IMO it is the word “agnostic” which still has a “spiritual” connotation. This is the part that most atheists reject. I have seen several comments about the possibility of a non-spiritual fundamental universal condition. Science is actively investigating a TOE (theory of everything). But can that be classified as “agnostic”?

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Posted: 14 January 2011 02:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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ExMachina - 14 January 2011 01:29 PM

...some of the people on this forum, still believe that you cannot be both Atheist and Agnostic…

I thought about it some more, and although it’s mostly semantics, you cannot be both.  Luckily there is a different word to describe yourself: negative atheism.

Our pals at Wikipedia can offer some clarity:
“Positive atheism is a term popularly used to describe the form of atheism that maintains that “There is at least one god” is a false statement. Negative atheism refers to any other type of non-theism, wherein a person does not believe any deities exist, but does not claim that same statement is false” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_and_strong_atheism).

Atheists have an opinion (god does not exist).  Agnostics have no opinion.  The fact that you think that a god does not exist means you are a negative atheist.  Welcome aboard!!

...and seriously, why get hung up about defending agnosticism?  You have an opinion (a pretty good one too), and because you are more than 50% in favour of the side that claims there is no god, you are by definition an atheist.  It’s really no big deal.

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I’m atheist, not agnostic. To say that god is unknowable is to say that god is.

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Posted: 14 January 2011 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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Funny you should use Wikipedeia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

Agnostic atheism
Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.[15]

The definition you gave did not say that you couldn’t be both. Agnostics just say that there’s no way to be definitively sure. You’re wrong in saying that being an Agnostic means that you have no opinion.

[ Edited: 14 January 2011 02:47 PM by ExMachina ]
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Posted: 14 January 2011 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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And as I’ve said many times before, I’m an atheist by faith and an agnostic by reason.  But I can understand how the religious fundamentalists can be so extremely strong in their belief by faith, because I tend to lean far more heavily on my atheistic faith than my agnostic belief. LOL

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Posted: 14 January 2011 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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Occam. - 14 January 2011 04:13 PM

And as I’ve said many times before, I’m an atheist by faith and an agnostic by reason.  But I can understand how the religious fundamentalists can be so extremely strong in their belief by faith, because I tend to lean far more heavily on my atheistic faith than my agnostic belief. LOL

Occam

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Posted: 14 January 2011 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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ExMachina - 14 January 2011 02:43 PM

Funny you should use Wikipedeia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

Agnostic atheism
Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.[15]

The definition you gave did not say that you couldn’t be both. Agnostics just say that there’s no way to be definitively sure. You’re wrong in saying that being an Agnostic means that you have no opinion.


Well it looks like we all win then.  There’s a word for agnostic atheists.  Who would have thought they’re called “agnostic atheists”? I suppose the difference then is between “believing” and “knowing.”  The two terms agnostic and atheists can be combined because they don’t exclude each other.

...Unless… Will it end if we can ever develop a way to know whether or not there is a deity?  Or is agnosticism also based on the premise that it is unknowable?... thereby opening another can of worms about how anyone can be an agnostic even though you claim to already know something about this deity, in particular that the deity has the properties of being undiscoverable or unknowable.  How do you know anything about the deity that may or may not exist in the first place?  Agnosticism almost implies that there is a god and that he is unknowable.

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I’m atheist, not agnostic. To say that god is unknowable is to say that god is.

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Posted: 14 January 2011 05:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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At the very most, agnosticism combined with atheism means that you only don’t believe in one particular kind of god.

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I’m atheist, not agnostic. To say that god is unknowable is to say that god is.

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Posted: 15 January 2011 01:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Well. . .  the derivation of the word “agnostic” is without knowledge.  I don’t see that as being the same as “unknowable”.  I’m agnostic about the seventy-nineth prime number, but it’s certainly not unknowable.  I could easily start listing them to learn that. 

By the way, Egran, could you go into your profile and change the color of your signature?  That blue is reserved for moderator statements (see the rules) usually correcting some post that is breaking rules such as personal attacks.  Thanks.

Occam

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Posted: 15 January 2011 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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One of the biggest misnomers about Agnosticism, is that people seem to believe that an Agnostic is without an opinion.

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Posted: 15 January 2011 07:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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True.  One of the problems many people have is that they don’t recognize the difference between proven fact and their opinion.  The fact that agnostics do is a point in their favor.

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