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Agnostics are Illogical
Posted: 16 January 2011 12:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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ExMachina - 15 January 2011 08:35 PM

But the question to you is: which god do you not know exists?  What makes it a god?

You’re caught under the idea that Agnostics rely on one group to be correct in order for there to be a possibility for a God to exist. A Deity can exist and be completely beyond anyones comprehension, so though many people could write about God, doesn’t promise that anyone would know anything about him.

If you have to ask what makes a God, then you really need to read up. You’re second question really diverts everything from the main point here. A God may or may not exist. I’m Agnostic because I’m not a person who believes that we can be 100% about anything, but I’m an Atheist, because I see little to no reason for there to be a God in this universe. I also understand from a psychological perspective why people believe that a God exists, so when I say I’m an Atheist, I’m saying it as a person who firmly believes and has little doubt.


But to say that “I do not know if god exists or not” means that you have defined god.  Whatever your definition is is irrelevant.  It means that you have formed an idea of god and you do not know if he exists or not.  The fact that you have formed an idea of him is to give him qualities.  This is the basis of my argument.  You cannot think of anything without giving it some kind of quality.  The fact that you thought about it does not make its existence any more possible, no matter what qualities you gave it.

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I’m atheist, not agnostic. To say that god is unknowable is to say that god is.

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Posted: 16 January 2011 01:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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egran078 - 15 January 2011 08:17 PM

But the question to you is: which god do you not know exists?  What makes it a god?

ANY God.

Let me make my position clear. As far as the God of the Old Testament is concerned, I’m an outright Atheist; I cannot conceive of the possibility that such a small-minded, mean-spoirited divine being claiming to be the Creator of the Universe, actually exists.

HOWEVER, I’m quite prepared to consider the possibility that, somewhere in the Multidimensional Multiverse postulated by SOME quantum physicists, there exist sentient beings, not necessarily “physical” as we understand the term, as far beyond humans in terms of intelligence, knowledge, wisdom and longevity as humans are beyond mice; but, for reasons of their own, they have made very sure that they have provided us with no unambiguous evidence of their existence; I mean the kind of evidence that would hold up, if not in a scietific laboratory, at least in a Court of Law. As far as these “beings” go I’m agnostic. I simply don’t claim to KNOW, one way or the other.

Theflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 16 January 2011 01:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 16 January 2011 01:39 AM

HOWEVER, I’m quite prepared to consider the possibility that, somewhere in the Multidimensional Multiverse postulated by SOME quantum physicists, there exist sentient beings, not necessarily “physical” as we understand the term, as far beyond humans in terms of intelligence, knowledge, wisdom and longevity as humans are beyond mice; but, for reasons of their own, they have made very sure that they have provided us with no unambiguous evidence of their existence; I mean the kind of evidence that would hold up, if not in a scietific laboratory, at least in a Court of Law. As far as these “beings” go I’m agnostic. I simply don’t claim to KNOW, one way or the other.

Theflyingsorcerer.

Yeah, well, I don’t believe there is an invisible flying dinosaur in my living room…but, you never know!
Your “beings” are just as improbable, and if you can’t consider my invisible flying dinosaur, you shouldn’t consider your SIB (supernatural invisible being).

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Posted: 16 January 2011 02:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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We should all just agree to disagree that everyone knows what they’re talking about.

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Posted: 16 January 2011 03:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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asanta - 16 January 2011 01:51 AM

Yeah, well, I don’t believe there is an invisible flying dinosaur in my living room…but, you never know!

Hey, if you say there’s no invisible dinosaur in your living room, I believe you. You know your living room better than I do.

But I suspect neither of us is too familiar with the other Universes of the Multiverse that physicists anxious to preserve the “everything happened by chance” theory are so fond of. So you don’t know what’s there any more than I do.

Theflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 16 January 2011 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 16 January 2011 03:39 PM
asanta - 16 January 2011 01:51 AM

Yeah, well, I don’t believe there is an invisible flying dinosaur in my living room…but, you never know!

Hey, if you say there’s no invisible dinosaur in your living room, I believe you. You know your living room better than I do.

But I suspect neither of us is too familiar with the other Universes of the Multiverse that physicists anxious to preserve the “everything happened by chance” theory are so fond of. So you don’t know what’s there any more than I do.

Theflyingsorcerer.

Actually the reverse is true. Science tries to reduce the concept of Universe or Universes to its simplest form which may be quantified. There is no desire by scientists to create or trying to preserve the notions of multiple universes. Unfortunately, some paradigms under investigation lead to the necessity of multiple universes, which is very problematic to science.
However, there are also paradigms being formulated which may solve the cunundrum of Multiple Universes (i.e. fractal geometry).
Moreover, you are ignoring a third possibility of Creation (aside from ID, or Chance), and that is “inevitability”.

[ Edited: 16 January 2011 04:22 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 16 January 2011 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 16 January 2011 03:39 PM

But I suspect neither of us is too familiar with the other Universes of the Multiverse that physicists anxious to preserve the “everything happened by chance” theory are so fond of. So you don’t know what’s there any more than I do.

Theflyingsorcerer.

Your “everything happened by chance” is a misnomer. That is NOT what science says. Science says that it happened in an ordered fashion, because it had to. It also says that it needed no supernatural guidance to occur.

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Posted: 16 January 2011 06:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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egran078 - 14 January 2011 05:37 PM

I’m atheist, not agnostic. To say that god is unknowable is to say that god is.

God is an idea, so that is just an idea of someones view of what a god they percieve to be.

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Posted: 16 January 2011 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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egran078 - 14 January 2011 05:37 PM

I’m atheist, not agnostic. To say that god is unknowable is to say that god is.

Not necessarily. One could discuss the limitations of knowledge and say that IF such a being existed beyond what we can justifiably say we can know of, it would be unknowable. Nowhere in that does it suppose such a being in fact exists.

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Posted: 16 January 2011 10:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Write4U - 16 January 2011 04:20 PM

Moreover, you are ignoring a third possibility of Creation (aside from ID, or Chance), and that is “inevitability”.

I don’t recall ever mentioning ID. And I completely agree; the universe/multiverse/whatever happened because it HAD TO happen just the way it did. But as I understand it, evolution happened by natural selection of CHANCE mutations.

Theflyingsorcerer

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Posted: 16 January 2011 10:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 16 January 2011 10:01 PM
Write4U - 16 January 2011 04:20 PM

Moreover, you are ignoring a third possibility of Creation (aside from ID, or Chance), and that is “inevitability”.

I don’t recall ever mentioning ID. And I completely agree; the universe/multiverse/whatever happened because it HAD TO happen just the way it did. But as I understand it, evolution happened by natural selection of CHANCE mutations.

Theflyingsorcerer

I was not attributing ID to you specifically. But those three are the possibilities most often discussed as causes of Creation.
Seems we are in general agreement… cheese

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Posted: 17 January 2011 06:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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asanta - 16 January 2011 06:13 PM
Theflyingsorcerer - 16 January 2011 03:39 PM

But I suspect neither of us is too familiar with the other Universes of the Multiverse that physicists anxious to preserve the “everything happened by chance” theory are so fond of. So you don’t know what’s there any more than I do.

Theflyingsorcerer.

Your “everything happened by chance” is a misnomer. That is NOT what science says. Science says that it happened in an ordered fashion, because it had to. It also says that it needed no supernatural guidance to occur.

Hmmm. Theflyingsorcerer might have a point. Originally astronomers also were not very fond of the big bang theory, because it opened the door for postulating a god again. Remember there were 2 cosmological principles: that we do not live in a privileged location, and not in a privileged time. Said otherwise: all galaxies are flowing away, so we seem to be in the middle. The cosmological principle says that all observers see themselves in the middle of flying away galaxies. But we live in perfectly defined time: an observer in another time, say one million years after the big bang would see another universe then we do now.

When the multiverse idea would be correct, we do not have to look for some special miracle of our universe, e.g. why the natural constants have the exact right value that stable structures like stars and humans exist. If there are billion of universes that it is mere chance that one of the universes happens to have the perfect constants.

About the topic of this thread: an agnostic is somebody who does not know if ‘a’ god exists. To clarify my position and confuse the discussion: I am a methodological agnostic, but I am pretty sure god does not exist. When I read the descriptions here, I think I am an ignosticist. But if there is a coherent definition, I might be a ‘weak atheist’.

Word, words, words…

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Posted: 17 January 2011 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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asanta - 16 January 2011 06:13 PM

Your “everything happened by chance” is a misnomer. That is NOT what science says.


Isn’t it?

Stephen

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Posted: 22 January 2011 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Maybe I haven’t been completely clear.  It does not matter what “level” of agnostic anyone is.  The whole idea of agnosticism is “I don’t know whether or not a deity exists.”  I think we all agree on this. 

The problem is in the word “deity.”  It needs to be defined otherwise the statement is as useless as saying “I don’t know whether or not snoobles exist.”  What is a snooble?  If I have not defined it, I cannot find it.

So my question to agnostics is - what is a deity?

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I’m atheist, not agnostic. To say that god is unknowable is to say that god is.

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Posted: 22 January 2011 02:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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egran078 - 22 January 2011 01:52 PM

Maybe I haven’t been completely clear.  It does not matter what “level” of agnostic anyone is.  The whole idea of agnosticism is “I don’t know whether or not a deity exists.”  I think we all agree on this. 

The problem is in the word “deity.”  It needs to be defined otherwise the statement is as useless as saying “I don’t know whether or not snoobles exist.”  What is a snooble?  If I have not defined it, I cannot find it.

So my question to agnostics is - what is a deity?

It is a generic word for a supernatural being or condition (most often with the quality of intelligence and purpose).

God, Deity, metaphysical natural condition, supernatural being, all these are generic terms, to which no provable qualities can be given. They are symbolic terms for unidenfiable and unprovable (subjective) “beings or conditions”.

My main problem is the question, if these “beings” exist outside our universe and we have no way of entering their universe, what makes anyone believe that they have access to our universe? If their universe is that different (remember finetuning) how could they exist in our universe. And if they do, what possible purpose would be served by their intentional creation of humans in another universe, who are unable to enter their universe until perhaps after our deaths, which releases our spiritual soul, which then does have access to this alternate universe (I guess we call that going to heaven)? It all comes down to wishful thinking, without any compelling motive, necessity, or proof.
But a natural metaphysical mathematical condition may well exist which is part of creation and evolution of the universe or even other universes. We do have evidence for that (laws of nature), we have proof (we exists), and this condition applies to every single event in the universe from before the beginning, to the present, and the immediate future. It may be called the single common denominator in the universe. But it does not need to be intelligent.

[ Edited: 22 January 2011 03:42 PM by Write4U ]
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