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Egypt?
Posted: 24 February 2011 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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mindcore - 03 February 2011 11:43 AM
tirebiter4659 - 31 January 2011 03:40 PM

I’ve heard there isn’t a whole lotta “allah is great” stuff going on… That’s great…

If I was rebellious,,, I would storm the armories??... Disable the big stuff..

From the reports I have been hearing Islamists are not leading this revolt, it is a genuinely popular revolt against a dictator. However the dictator supports U.S. policy with regard to Israel. This creates a difficult position for the U.S.

I heard that only 1% would vote for the Muslim Brotherhood. That made me so very happy.

C

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Posted: 24 February 2011 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Bees Mom - 24 February 2011 12:14 PM
mindcore - 03 February 2011 11:43 AM
tirebiter4659 - 31 January 2011 03:40 PM

I’ve heard there isn’t a whole lotta “allah is great” stuff going on… That’s great…

If I was rebellious,,, I would storm the armories??... Disable the big stuff..

From the reports I have been hearing Islamists are not leading this revolt, it is a genuinely popular revolt against a dictator. However the dictator supports U.S. policy with regard to Israel. This creates a difficult position for the U.S.

I heard that only 1% would vote for the Muslim Brotherhood. That made me so very happy.

C

Oh yeah? I heard that 85% of Egyptians view Islam’s role in politics as positive, 84% accept the death penalty for apostates and 82% endorse the stoning of adulterers.

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Posted: 24 February 2011 12:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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George - 24 February 2011 12:29 PM
Bees Mom - 24 February 2011 12:14 PM
mindcore - 03 February 2011 11:43 AM
tirebiter4659 - 31 January 2011 03:40 PM

I’ve heard there isn’t a whole lotta “allah is great” stuff going on… That’s great…

If I was rebellious,,, I would storm the armories??... Disable the big stuff..

From the reports I have been hearing Islamists are not leading this revolt, it is a genuinely popular revolt against a dictator. However the dictator supports U.S. policy with regard to Israel. This creates a difficult position for the U.S.

I heard that only 1% would vote for the Muslim Brotherhood. That made me so very happy.

C

Oh yeah? I heard that 85% of Egyptians view Islam’s role in politics as positive, 84% accept the death penalty for apostates and 82% endorse the stoning of adulterers.

*shrugs* http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt Seems that some claims of support for them might be greatly exagerrated. Time will tell.

C

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Posted: 24 February 2011 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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If George’s data are correct, possibly the Muslim Brotherhood is too liberal and weak for the Egyptians so they might prefer a more Iranian form of Islamic theocracy.  snake

Occam

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Posted: 24 February 2011 06:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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HERE is the link (a PDF).

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Posted: 24 February 2011 06:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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asanta - 24 February 2011 01:22 AM

. rolleyes

The brave struggle for democracy and justice is hard you know.  I doubt that facing Kadaffi’s tanks is easy.

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Posted: 25 November 2011 06:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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big surprise  Egypt’s democratic struggle continues, wow!  The party is in Tahrir Square in Cairo, Egypt tonight!  The military helped the people to remove his royalty Hosni Mubarak, and now they appear to be helping themselves to a little autonomy from the civilian government too.  The people do not like that, except for the ones who do.  What will the people do to their military?  All while Israel is sitting in the middle of it all, is her finger on the button?  Why do I get the feeling that deposing Mubarik was the easy part, and that this fledgling democracy is in for some hard times?  Lets hope its a good one.

“In a move that seemed certain to escalate tensions between the military government and demonstrators calling for its removal, members of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces declared that to step down now would be a ‘betrayal’ of the people’s trust, and insisted that they would not be dislodged by a ‘slogan-chanting crowd’.”

“Journalists are now the unwanted witnesses of the army’s desperate attempts to hold on to power and Reporters Without Borders fears that the abuses against media personnel could worsen.”

(In the Guardian video, the Egyptian military Scaf chief of staff, Mokhtar el-Mola urges the people to focus on the upcoming formation of the parlament and the election of their President in July next year.)

The Guardian: Egypt’s generals defy Tahrir protests over elections (Thursday 24 November 2011)

The Telegraph: Egypt uprising: timeline (3:03PM GMT 22 Nov 2011)

PBS: Egypt’s Uprising Has Characteristics of Past Revolutions (Posted: February 4, 2011)

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Posted: 26 November 2011 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Gaining freedom and justice is seldom easy.  Lets hope the Egyptians can resovle there problems, lose the military dominance of their gov’t and get a start on the road to demcracy.

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Posted: 27 November 2011 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Just to be precise and nitpicking: 

Oligarchy is the rule by a small group.

Plutocracy is the rule by the wealhy.

Occam


How about a plutocratic oligarchy? Sounds redundant but that’s what we’re morphing into here in the U.S. At present the only grassroots group to scream this in the streets is the Wall Street movement which, BTW has hit here in our area. Still no real leadership but if it doesn’t blow itself out may influence the political parties to recognize its growing strength. Kudos to the kids.  And Egypt? How do you wipe out 1300 years of theocracy when their religion pervades every aspect of their culture? We separated religion and government at birth whereas their religion IS their government. After the dust settles the people will allow another strong man (military leader) to assume the role of leader and he will be a devout Muslim. And the cycle will begin again, and we in the West will tolerate him for a time if he plays ball and when he doesn’t we will work to have him removed!

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 27 November 2011 10:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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True, but it’s sort of redundant since it’s hard to imagine a society where everyone or even a majority would be considered wealthy within the framework of that system. 

I agree with the Wall Street movement, but they are focusing their anger on the effects (the financial sector), not the cause (bought politicians).  We need to have the people demand and force that political influence and power be taken away from the wealthy.  This means such things as a Constitutional amendment canceling the Supreme Court ruling on personhood of corporations, publically funded elections with a low level of maximum political contributions, severe penalties for both the supplier and the recipient of political perquisites such as trips, stock tips, etc., making it illegal for any former political representative to be a lobbyist, anti-gerrymandering and caging laws. uniform easy voter registration, and mandatory history, civics and political science courses in all public schools, systems to inhibit overseas production by U.S. companies (tariffs, taxation of overseas income, etc.)

Occam

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Posted: 27 November 2011 11:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Occam, you just might be the leader we’re looking for! My question in response is how do we effectively disentangle the politicians from all of that money and perks? As you know, there are several ways to amend the constitution including a plebicite of the people. In order to do this we must go over the heads of those in power and force the amendment through by popular vote.And The only way to prevent voter apathy is to launch a media blitz encouraging people to vote on the issues you have outlined. And BTW universal education in government and civics is a violation of the right of states to mandate their own edu. standards. I’m VERY much in favor of universal mandatory edu. in civics and gov’t. Every citizen needs to know how their gov’t works and how they can make it work for them. SOme states don’t even require civics. the Ohio bd. of edu. has even lowered the gov’t requirement to one semester! One damn semester for gov’t and civics! We have sent a protest to the Bd. but right now they aren’t listening. But I digress. Yes, the Wall St. protests should focus directly on those issues that you outlined. It’s the only way to wrench the power out of the hands of the wealthy elite, but if that effort is really made there will be bloodshed in the end. remember the Civil Rights movement.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 27 November 2011 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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thevillageathiest - 27 November 2011 06:45 AM

And Egypt? How do you wipe out 1300 years of theocracy when their religion pervades every aspect of their culture? We separated religion and government at birth whereas their religion IS their government.

The USA started like that.  The thirteen colonies each established as a religious refuge for one sect or another, all others banished by law.  It was good that William Penn established religious freedom for his colony.  But that was all the freedom the colonies had, before the revolutionary ideas that changed everything.  Today the East Coast and West Coast has religious freedom, but not so much freedom in the Mid-West Bible Belt.

If the West countries stand up for the secular freedom and civil rights in the Mid-East, then we can write it into their laws for them, they can learn about the laws after they get they free public education.  smile

If we don’t then tell me where is Egypt’s William Penn, or Thomas Jefferson?  Who there will stand up for civil rights?  In Iraq their Constitution declares the country as a Muslim country.  Now who here is going to say that that is more correct than the West declaring Egypt as religiously free?  Without the West, Egypt has the Muslim Brotherhood, and what do you think they will do?

It is time to act.  What will you stand for, or will you sit?  This isn’t for the sake of history people, history is the past.  This is for the sake of law, this is for the future, it is far more important than history.

[ Edited: 27 November 2011 01:47 PM by jump_in_the_pit ]
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Posted: 27 November 2011 06:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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The USA started like that.  The thirteen colonies each established as a religious refuge for one sect or another, all others banished by law.  It was good that William Penn established religious freedom for his colony.  But that was all the freedom the colonies had, before the revolutionary ideas that changed everything.  Today the East Coast and West Coast has religious freedom, but not so much freedom in the Mid-West Bible Belt.

If the West countries stand up for the secular freedom and civil rights in the Mid-East, then we can write it into their laws for them, they can learn about the laws after they get they free public education. 

If we don’t then tell me where is Egypt’s William Penn, or Thomas Jefferson?  Who there will stand up for civil rights?  In Iraq their Constitution declares the country as a Muslim country.  Now who here is going to say that that is more correct than the West declaring Egypt as religiously free?  Without the West, Egypt has the Muslim Brotherhood, and what do you think they will do?

It is time to act.  What will you stand for, or will you sit?  This isn’t for the sake of history people, history is the past.  This is for the sake of law, this is for the future, it is far more important than history.

Not quite Jump. Virginia was founded by the London Company to look for gold and the northwest passage. New York was ripped from the Dutch for the fur trade, New Jersey, same but from the Swedes, the Carolinas, for tobacco and pine products, and Georgia was a penal colony. You’re right about all the rest of course. As to writing democracy into Egyptian laws, it wouldn’t stand. As John Adams stated, democracy MUST come from within, and not from without (paraphrase). Unless the Egyptians declare themselves religiously free, and that’s not likely to happen we’re dead in the water there. We can’t compare our values to theirs because our society is based on the right of freemen to decide for themselves what government they want and what religion they wish to follow. Our trail begins with the English Magna Carta and the English BIll of Rights. Theirs begins with being conquered by the Muslims who established a theocracy to keep the religious state intact. They have been under a caliphate rule for over a millinium while we’ve been in existence for only over 400 years. If we intervene it will ultimately cost us another war. We can offer aid to the rebels and hope that they learn how to handle a democratic government. Watching Iraq for a while may show us what happens when we attempt to set up a democracy.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 27 November 2011 11:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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I agree Cap’t Jack about the start of the colonies, but after that the laws started to be written down, and O’Boy!  I was talking about laws at the start of the USA, pardon me if my wording wasn’t clear. 

The religious laws in the early USA were wide-spread, were horrible, and that was how fellow Christians treated each other, the USA was largely a genuine theocracy.  Beware that many people are hesitant to tell that ugly history strait—speak no evil, hear no evil, see no evil.  The Mid-East laws are more tolerant of different religions than the early USA was about fellow Christians, except where the militant Muslim extremists are tolerated, of course.  downer

My overall point is that the Mid-East is not that different than us, same God and the same religious extremists.  They are just foreigners, they’re not inhuman, people.  They can improve too.  smile

Virginia’s religious laws and the “House of Burgesses,” are discussed on page 2 of the LOC web site.

“Some settlers who arrived in these areas came for secular motives—‘to catch fish’ as one New Englander put it—but the great majority left Europe to worship God in the way they believed to be correct. They enthusiastically supported the efforts of their leaders to create ‘a city on a hill’ or a ‘holy experiment,’ whose success would prove that God’s plan for his churches could be successfully realized in the American wilderness. Even colonies like Virginia, which were planned as commercial ventures, were led by entrepreneurs who considered themselves ‘militant Protestants’ and who worked diligently to promote the prosperity of the church.”

“... the conviction, held by Protestants and Catholics alike, that uniformity of religion must exist in any given society. This conviction rested on the belief that there was one true religion and that it was the duty of the civil authorities to impose it, forcibly if necessary, in the interest of saving the souls of all citizens. Nonconformists could expect no mercy and might be executed as heretics.”

LOC: I. America as a Religious Refuge: The Seventeenth Century

Heck, even when Jefferson and committee wrote the Statute for Religious Freedom in Virginia, it was a religious appeal, not even a secular one!  Ooh good, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Rhode Island took some early steps forward.  smile  Ahhh, that’s the start of a good ending!

[ Edited: 28 November 2011 07:39 AM by jump_in_the_pit ]
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Posted: 28 November 2011 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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And after that Egypt got the vote.  smile

“‘We are afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood. But we lived for 30 years under Mubarak, we will live with them, too,’ said Nawar, a first-time voter.

“Some voters brought their children along, saying they wanted them to learn how to exercise their rights in a democracy. Lines in cities around the country brought out a cross-section of the nation: men in Islamic beards, women in trendy clothes, the conservative headscarf or the niqab - the most radical Islamic attire covering women’s body from head to toe with only the eyes showing.”

“Back in Cairo, Shahira Ahmed, 45, was in line with her husband and daughter along with some 500 voters outside a polling station in a school in the upscale neighborhood of Zamalek. She said she was hoping liberals can at least establish some presence in parliament - ‘to have a liberal and a civilized country, I mean no fanatics.’”

Daily News: Egypt holds historic elections, voters turn out in droves

The Egyptians have a lot in common with us. smile  Separation of church and state in the USA was meant to defend against the laws that the religious extremists wrote and the terror that they did.  The extremists started it, separation of church and state is meant to end it.  The idea of letting the religious extremists write the laws is just wrong.

[ Edited: 28 November 2011 08:36 AM by jump_in_the_pit ]
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