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Egypt?
Posted: 28 November 2011 08:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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The religious laws in the early USA were wide-spread, were horrible, and that was how fellow Christians treated each other, the USA was largely a genuine theocracy.  Beware that many people are hesitant to tell that ugly history strait—speak no evil, hear no evil, see no evil.  The Mid-East laws are more tolerant of different religions than the early USA was about fellow Christians, except where the militant Muslim extremists are tolerated, of course.

Ok Jump, I understand your position now. Although I take issue concerning the theocracy statement. Yes, certain religious laws were established in the colonies in the beginning, but as those denominations split from the Church of England (Anglican Church) and morphed into today’s denominations (namely the Methodist-Episcopal and primative baptists) they became less tied to the local governments due to competition with more secular leaders and religion slowly lost its hold on the people. Also the Age of Enlightenment inspired our leaders to question the right of the church in political matters. In short, this led to the Establishment clause of the Constitution as outlined in 1787.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/estabinto.htm

This ended the grip that the church had on national laws and began a more secular legal system based on a single egalitarian document ( or at least the foundation of one). There was an attempt to reclaim this religious hold on Americans with the 2nd Great Awakwening in the 1830’s but it petered out quickly. One effect was to send missionaries to the Indians of the West, so theocratically the government did push for converting the Indians so that they could steal the land in a more systematic fashion. Just a tip, watch sites that stress religious reasons for American history, especially state constitutions.  There is a concerted attempt to revise American History in a religious vein. If you have the time, read Chris Roda’s “Liars for Jesus”. It’s an expose on the christian right’s attempt to rewrite history, favoring religion!

Also, concerning your last post, this may be the honeymoon for those in Egypt seeking a democratic state and like you I hope that it lasts but the track record speaks for itself. I’ll play Nostadomus and predict that a strong Muslim man will arise and retake the reigns of government in Egypt and restore Allah to the throne.

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 28 November 2011 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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Occam. - 27 November 2011 10:57 AM

True, but it’s sort of redundant since it’s hard to imagine a society where everyone or even a majority would be considered wealthy within the framework of that system. 

I agree with the Wall Street movement, but they are focusing their anger on the effects (the financial sector), not the cause (bought politicians).  We need to have the people demand and force that political influence and power be taken away from the wealthy.  This means such things as a Constitutional amendment canceling the Supreme Court ruling on personhood of corporations, publically funded elections with a low level of maximum political contributions, severe penalties for both the supplier and the recipient of political perquisites such as trips, stock tips, etc., making it illegal for any former political representative to be a lobbyist, anti-gerrymandering and caging laws. uniform easy voter registration, and mandatory history, civics and political science courses in all public schools, systems to inhibit overseas production by U.S. companies (tariffs, taxation of overseas income, etc.)

Occam

along these lines 3 articles from the same page in the editorial section of the Buffalo News,

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial-page/columns/douglas-turner/article651426.ece

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial-page/buffalo-news-editorials/article651389.ece

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial-page/from-our-readers/another-voice/article651422.ece

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Posted: 28 November 2011 11:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Jump:

If the West countries stand up for the secular freedom and civil rights in the Mid-East, then we can write it into their laws for them, they can learn about the laws after they get they free public education. 

If we don’t then tell me where is Egypt’s William Penn, or Thomas Jefferson?  Who there will stand up for civil rights? 

That won’t work, people have to win and protect their freedoms for themselves, otherwise they take no stakie in it.

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Posted: 28 November 2011 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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thevillageathiest - 28 November 2011 08:53 AM

Ok Jump, I understand your position now. Although I take issue concerning the theocracy statement. Yes, certain religious laws were established in the colonies in the beginning, but as those denominations split from the Church of England (Anglican Church)...

Thanks for the history about the Protestant splits, I’m not very familiar.

thevillageathiest - 28 November 2011 08:53 AM

Also, concerning your last post, this may be the honeymoon for those in Egypt seeking a democratic state and like you I hope that it lasts but the track record speaks for itself.

No-one is on any honeymoon, certainly the Egyptians are well grounded and so am I, I keep hoping for secular people and laws that are truly committed to civil rights.  I’ll pick Shahira Ahmed’s and her family’s side.  smile

garythehuman - 28 November 2011 11:02 AM

Jump: That won’t work, people have to win and protect their freedoms for themselves, otherwise they take no stakie in it.

They just won the rebellion against Mubarak.  It is now time to write laws, gary.  smile

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Posted: 28 November 2011 12:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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T.V.A., you are certainly right about the difficulty of instituting all of those reforms.  As I see it, it has to be done bit by bit.  Getting state by state laws written lthat force uniform electoral districts (by computer) to eliminate gerrymandering would be one step.  Instituting publically funded elections would be another.  While education is reserved to the states, the educational community should focus on one state at a time to upgrade education, especially in the governmental areas. 

Unfortunately, we may have already reached the point of no repair.  If that’s so, we’ll sink into the third world category for the foreseeable future.

Occam

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Posted: 28 November 2011 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Unfortunately, we may have already reached the point of no repair.  If that’s so, we’ll sink into the third world category for the foreseeable future

For my grandchildren’s sake I hope that this doesn’t happen. While education over all is improving via new and innovative methods using modern technology (ex. smartboards and the internet) we need to fight for universal education in government and economics. Every student needs to know how to gain control of their government through the vote and how to control their own finances. I am creating mini-courses that address these issues in my current events classes. We may not be able to influence the whole country, but we can start in our own corner of the World.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 28 November 2011 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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No-one is on any honeymoon, certainly the Egyptians are well grounded and so am I, I keep hoping for secular people and laws that are truly committed to civil rights.  I’ll pick Shahira Ahmed’s and her family’s side.

I mean no disrespect concerning your post Jump, and I’m sure that you are well grounded, if not a little more optimistic than me. History doesn’t have to repeat itself if the Egyptians are able to stick together and create a grassroots movement for a democratic society. I didn’t mean to imply that it couldn’t be done, just that they are unfamiliar with the separation of religion and government. But who knows, in the future they might evolve into a more secular society. One can only hope!

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 03 December 2011 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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thevillageathiest - 28 November 2011 04:11 PM

Unfortunately, we may have already reached the point of no repair.  If that’s so, we’ll sink into the third world category for the foreseeable future

For my grandchildren’s sake I hope that this doesn’t happen. While education over all is improving via new and innovative methods using modern technology (ex. smartboards and the internet) we need to fight for universal education in government and economics. Every student needs to know how to gain control of their government through the vote and how to control their own finances. I am creating mini-courses that address these issues in my current events classes. We may not be able to influence the whole country, but we can start in our own corner of the World.

Cap’t Jack

This innovative method and use of modern technology in schools haven’t produced as well as the Waldorf system of education, so I understand. Saw a program the other day of private schools using this system of educating the kid’s. No computers, no phones. Pencil & paper is the highest in tech. High income families pay from $13,000 to $20,000 yearly to send a child to school.(1-12). And the results are outstanding, preparing young minds for the best of colleges and universities. I recall that a public school, Milwaukee something, is using it and having success stories too. This is what I would like to see in our corner of the world.

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Posted: 04 December 2011 03:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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ohio204 - 03 December 2011 04:46 PM
thevillageathiest - 28 November 2011 04:11 PM

Unfortunately, we may have already reached the point of no repair.  If that’s so, we’ll sink into the third world category for the foreseeable future

For my grandchildren’s sake I hope that this doesn’t happen. While education over all is improving via new and innovative methods using modern technology (ex. smartboards and the internet) we need to fight for universal education in government and economics. Every student needs to know how to gain control of their government through the vote and how to control their own finances. I am creating mini-courses that address these issues in my current events classes. We may not be able to influence the whole country, but we can start in our own corner of the World.

Cap’t Jack

This innovative method and use of modern technology in schools haven’t produced as well as the Waldorf system of education, so I understand. Saw a program the other day of private schools using this system of educating the kid’s. No computers, no phones. Pencil & paper is the highest in tech. High income families pay from $13,000 to $20,000 yearly to send a child to school.(1-12). And the results are outstanding, preparing young minds for the best of colleges and universities. I recall that a public school, Milwaukee something, is using it and having success stories too. This is what I would like to see in our corner of the world.

Yes, money can buy good teachers and study materials. Then there probably is peer pressure.
I wonder how they do it in Japan. A high tech country, but with outstanding scholastic achievement across the board.
Some difference comes to mind, longer school hours, fewer holidays. Perhaps it may also be a cultural thing.

[ Edited: 04 December 2011 03:30 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 04 December 2011 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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Yeah, Write4U, it’s a great mystery. What could it possibly be, eh?

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Posted: 04 December 2011 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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Awww, come on.  Everyone knows it’s their genetic advantage, right?  LOL

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Posted: 04 December 2011 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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George - 04 December 2011 07:26 AM

Yeah, Write4U, it’s a great mystery. What could it possibly be, eh?

Surely not the high tech, we have plenty of that.

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Posted: 04 December 2011 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Occam. - 04 December 2011 01:07 PM

Awww, come on.  Everyone knows it’s their genetic advantage, right?  LOL

Occam

Neah, that sounds too racist. THEREFORE, it must be something cultural. Probably all the dolphins the Japanese eat or something like that.

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Posted: 05 December 2011 05:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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This innovative method and use of modern technology in schools haven’t produced as well as the Waldorf system of education, so I understand. Saw a program the other day of private schools using this system of educating the kid’s. No computers, no phones. Pencil & paper is the highest in tech. High income families pay from $13,000 to $20,000 yearly to send a child to school.(1-12). And the results are outstanding, preparing young minds for the best of colleges and universities. I recall that a public school, Milwaukee something, is using it and having success stories too. This is what I would like to see in our corner of the world.

Ohio! You’re back!  Waldorf system of edu? Never heerd of it. But that’s how I started back in 72’, a book, a desk, a piece of chalk, and pencil and paper for the students. THirty six years later and I have this high tech equipment, computers in the room, a smartboard and the WWW anytime I want to glean info from the World. And ya know what???? It’s a hella of a lot better now! Seriously, man it depends on the teacher. You have one whose trained, experienced and loves the job and you have a successful classroom with low discipline problems and high level of learning. Any jackass can tell the kids to turn on their computers and “don’t bother me” but to really teach you must plan, posess the social skills of a profesional entertainer and have the patience of a watchmaker. I’ve literaly seen it all in education from the time I entered until now.  It dosen’t matter if the child is Asian (we have several here), Caucasian, or African-American, if you speak their language (body, teen, text whatever) and care how they learn (like a one room schoolhouse where each child has a different level) then you’ll have a student ready to either become skilled or academic. Like Churchill said, “give us the tools and we will finish the job”.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 05 December 2011 07:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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back, I guess so,  I just hadn’t much to say.
yeah, I remember you saying you have lots of high tech, and yet it doesn’t seem to produce quality students as the Waldorf system does. Heard the other day that most High school students can’t write their name in script.

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