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Crop circles
Posted: 11 February 2011 05:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 121 ]
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This is probably old news for I haven’t kept up with the 9/11 debate.  Shortly after it occurred I was intrigued by the information that the buildings dropped so rapidly, apparently at or near the speed an object would free fall.  I have a friend who is a project manager at a structural engineering firm which also did some evaluation/research into building failure for insurance companies and lawyers, when I asked him about it his answer was to this effect:

  High rise structures are built around a core of vertical weight bearing columns.  Each floor is attached to the vertical column structure with only enough strength to support that floor,  this amounting to the weight of the structural members and code requirements for loading, (usually 100 lbs/sq.ft).  When this sort of structure fails as soon as one floor drops it’s weight, magnified by it’s momentum, overloads the floor below.  The lower floors structural connections fail, and importantly they don’t fail by yielding, which would take discernible time, but in shear, which for practical purposes is instantaneous.  Therefore the building drops very rapidly.

My friend had evaluated the failure of a 7 story condominium building which had failed in the same way.  In that case it wasn’t hit by an aircraft and there was no fire.  They were behind schedule and pulled the supports that held the concrete forms, and so the top floor, before the concrete had adequately cured.  In that case the building had dropped at very near the the acceleration of gravity.  It was under construction and several workmen were killed.

This seemed like a pretty good explanation to me, as least much more likely than a planned demolition, so I kind of stopped paying attention to the issue and worried more about the Iraq war, about which conspiracy theories are much easier to posit and harder to refute.

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Posted: 11 February 2011 06:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 122 ]
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Jeciron,

Are you SERIOUS? Are you saying the WTC was still not CURED OUT?!?


Oops, sorry wrong side… wink

GdB

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Posted: 11 February 2011 02:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 123 ]
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I’m sorry if I was unclear.  In my understanding, the fact that the top floor in the condo hadn’t been given time to cure was not the point, only that in failing it doubled the weight of the floor below causing that floor to fail in shear.  According to my source, the floors of a high rise structure, (cured or not), are not designed to hold the weight of another floor, much less another 15 stories,( or however many were above the plane strikes on the World Trade buildings), and that the structural connections would shear, not yield, a shear failure being almost instantaneous.  As my friend put it a yield failure usually sounds like “” creeeeaaaak and a shear failure sounds like “snap”.

I’m not a structural engineer, so I’m not going to defend this idea, except to say it made more intuitive sense to me then any other I’d heard and it comes from a person who’s worked in the engineering field for many years.  As for my intuition, I’ve worked with structural steel a bit, and spent years doing maintenance and repair work, so I’ve seen a lot of failures and on an empirical basis it seems like a possibility to me.  I know this forum is loaded with scientists and engineers, so perhaps someone can offer a better explanation, or explain why my friends was not a possibility.  I’d like to think that I’m true enough to my skeptical values that it would be an honor to be corrected.

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Posted: 11 February 2011 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 124 ]
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Jeciron, you were quite clear. GdB was using sarcasm.

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Posted: 11 February 2011 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 125 ]
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Oh,,,Well, there’s no point in being dumb unless you show it.

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Posted: 11 February 2011 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 126 ]
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Jeciron - 11 February 2011 03:20 PM

Oh,,,Well, there’s no point in being dumb unless you show it.

Well from those two post above, you aren’t near as dumb as some others we’ve heard from.  cheese

Oh and welcome to CFI.

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Posted: 11 February 2011 07:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 127 ]
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Or to put it more positively, your posts were a hell of a lot smarter than many of the posts we had here in the past.  LOL

Occam

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Posted: 12 February 2011 12:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 128 ]
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Jeciron,

Sorry for the confusion, I hoped my ‘Oops’ and the smiley would make clear that I was sarcastic.

In fact you explained the free fall point better than any one here before. Psik refuses to see that the WTC crash is fully explained by the air planes. I tried to imitate his style.

Thanks Darron for clearing up this point so fast.

I second CC and Occam. Looking forward for more postings of you.

GdB

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Posted: 13 February 2011 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 129 ]
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I tried moving this subject out of this crop circle thread.

Jeciron - 11 February 2011 05:30 AM

  High rise structures are built around a core of vertical weight bearing columns.  Each floor is attached to the vertical column structure with only enough strength to support that floor,  this amounting to the weight of the structural members and code requirements for loading, (usually 100 lbs/sq.ft).  When this sort of structure fails as soon as one floor drops it’s weight, magnified by it’s momentum, overloads the floor below.  The lower floors structural connections fail, and importantly they don’t fail by yielding, which would take discernible time, but in shear, which for practical purposes is instantaneous.  Therefore the building drops very rapidly.

My friend had evaluated the failure of a 7 story condominium building which had failed in the same way.  In that case it wasn’t hit by an aircraft and there was no fire.  They were behind schedule and pulled the supports that held the concrete forms, and so the top floor, before the concrete had adequately cured.  In that case the building had dropped at very near the the acceleration of gravity.

#1.  Was that a steel frame building?

#2. Are you implying that the distribution of support mass in a 7 story building is similar to that of a 110 story building?  So how would the conservation of momentum going to affect the speed of collapse?  You can’t even find the weight of of the floor assemblies in the WTC.

#3. He didn’t explain if that structure had a core.  If the floors supposedly broke loose why did the core of the WTC come down.  What happened to the vertical supports in that incident?  Just CLAIMING something is similar can appeal to what people want to believe but the differences are pretty obvious.

#4. Conspiracies are irrelevant.  This is just physics and engineering.  Comparing a 7 story building under construction to a 110 story skyscraper that stood for 30 years is idiotic.  Throwing around the “conspiracy theorist” sound byte is like calling atheists “servants of satan”.  It is just stupid propagandistic bullshit.

#5. After NINE YEARS the physicists and people in the construction business have a problem.  They should have resolved this in SIX MONTHS.  But they can’t even point to an official source that specifies the tons of steel and tons of concrete that were on every level of the WTC but we are supposed to believe skyscrapers can be constructed without figuring that out.

#6. Where is a link to this incident to see what percentage came down?  Wny haven’t our engineering schools built a physical model that could mostly collapse by now?

psik

[ Edited: 13 February 2011 07:42 AM by psikeyhackr ]
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Posted: 13 February 2011 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 130 ]
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psikeyhackr - 13 February 2011 07:38 AM

I tried moving this subject out of this crop circle thread.

No, it makes sense these two topics should be in the same thread!

The wheat inside a crop circle fell at the rate of gravity in 10 seconds flat!  The wheat inside a crop circle falls into its own footprint!  And there were no Joooooooooos in the wheat field at the time the crops fell!  Bush’s buddies in Big Farma (as opposed to his buddies Big Pharma) stands to make a fortune off of the increased price of wheat from destroyed crops!  No wheat has ever been brought down into a corp circle by fire! 

The circumference of a circle is equal to 360°  3 + 6 + 0 = 9!
Crop Circles = 11 letters!

9/11!

OMG psikeyhackr you are on to something!  Quick put on your tin foil hat before they beam their mind control into your brain!

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Posted: 13 February 2011 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 131 ]
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Rocinante - 13 February 2011 09:22 AM

The circumference of a circle is equal to 360°  3 + 6 + 0 = 9!
Crop Circles = 11 letters!

9/11!

OMG psikeyhackr you are on to something!  Quick put on your tin foil hat before they beam their mind control into your brain!

big surprise  grin  LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL  LOL
That is one of the funniest posts I have seen anywhere in a long time.

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Posted: 13 February 2011 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 132 ]
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9/11, Crop Circles and JFK are all part of the same massive conspiracy! grin


WTC = Wheat Tramped into Circles!

United Airlines Flight 93
American Airlines Flight 11
American Airlines Flight 77
United Airlines Flight 175

93 + 11 + 77 + 175 = 356
Pi is the ratio of any (crop) circle’s circumference to its diameter.
Pi = 3.1415
3.  1 4   1 5
3. 1 +4=5 1+5=6

356

It was JFK who set the goal to send Astronauts to the Moon which would require the aliens to respond with crop circles!

JFK was the 35th President and assassinated at 12:30 1+2+3+0=6356!

World Trade Center = WTC
Rearrange the letters and you get TWC = The Warren Commission

On page 356 of The Warren Commission is testimony of a man who grew up on a farm, the place crop circles appear!

Plus there is this:

pentagon_2.jpg

And since the Pentagon (along with the CIA, LBJ, Castro, the Mafia, the Soviets, the Illuminanti, the Rosicrucians, The Skull & Bones, the Trilateral Commission, the Bildabergers, the Greys, the Reptillians and several jealous husbands) were the ones who had Kennedy killed, it all comes back to crop circles and 9/11!

Psikeyhackr is doing nothing but anomaly hunting.  The sad part is that he actually believes his anomalies really mean some sort of grand (and perhaps even galactic) conspiracy.  You may have a high IQ Psikeyhackr, but check out the life of another high IQer, John Forbes Nash, Jr. sometime.

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Posted: 13 February 2011 07:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 133 ]
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Rocinante, I hope your ‘other’ job is as a stand-up-comedian! You’d make millions weaving together conspiracy after conspiracy!
The only thing left out were ‘big foot’ and ‘area 51’.

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Posted: 13 February 2011 07:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 134 ]
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Jeciron - 11 February 2011 03:20 PM

Oh,,,Well, there’s no point in being dumb unless you show it.

Jerciron, we’ve all been down this road with psikeyhackr. I don’t think there is a conspiracy theory out there, no matter how improbable, that he is unwilling to embrace wholeheartedly with his ‘Mensa level’ IQ (honestly, they would get more respect if they screened their members more effectively). It doesn’t matter what evidence you present, nor what your field of expertise (say, an engineering expert in failure analysis), he is just so much smarter than anyone else, they can’t pull the wool over his eyes, and we are just sheeple to believe the official story. LOL

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Posted: 13 February 2011 08:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 135 ]
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asanta - 13 February 2011 07:57 PM

Jerciron, we’ve all been down this road with psikeyhackr. I don’t think there is a conspiracy theory out there, no matter how improbable, that he is unwilling to embrace wholeheartedly with his ‘Mensa level’ IQ…

Some of the worst thinkers I know are Mensa members.  It just goes to show ya that being good at taking tests is not a good measure of intelligence.

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