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Crop circles
Posted: 06 February 2011 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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GPS Surveying
Modern technology has greatly advances the tools which with objects are surveyed. Precision GPS equipment is the latest resource to be added to a surveyor’s set of tools. There are many tasks in both land surveying and construction surveying for which GPS is ideally suited, but it far from a do-it-all tool; total stations did not make chains obsolete, and neither will GPS.

The accuracy of GPS equipment is not suitable for high precision tasks when working at short ranges, such as locating anchor bolts; a steel chain would likely be a better tool. Under ideal situations the accuracy of GPS equipment can approach 5 millimeter, where it is common for total station measurements to have a built in error of only 2-3 millimeters; thus, the total station is a more accurate instrument when working within the total station’s maximum range. When working outside of 200 feet, a total station is going to be the most accurate instrument on the average construction project. When working outside of the maximum range of the total station, GPS equipment becomes the most accurate of the surveyor’s tool. The GPS equipment will potentially maintain an accuracy of 5 millimeters, even when performing measurements over the several miles. GPS equipment’s level of accuracy at great ranges is especially useful on extremely large construction projects, such as an airport project including runways, or on highway construction projects covering hundreds of miles.

This is from Perdue University’s website. It is the first thing I grabbed.
Aside from that I actually get out and about with my line of work. I see things in action. I’ve talked with farmers, construction engineers, utility engineers etc…They have all explained to me numerous times, in numerous occasions, with actual live examples in front of me, the accuracy of their GPS tools.
So you can imagine how frustrating having this debate with you is.

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Posted: 06 February 2011 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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Of course we see mention of the Total Station above. Another highly accurate method of surveying that’s been around for awhile.
But Psikey you keep grasping for straws. You keep trying to plant doubt in our minds that despite all of the easy, common, available methods for accurate surveying, there are still unknowns in the world of crop circles.
Like your original ideas.(let’s not digress too long into the commonly used methods of surveying and why you think they don’t apply)
People sneak into do these things.
They do them in the dark.
They do them in short periods of time.(24 hrs. or so)
What else can you tell us about crop circles? Can you do it without u-tube links?

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Posted: 06 February 2011 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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I’ll keep blasting here.
Also, what exactly do you think are the necessary levels of tolerance when creating geometric shapes pressed into straw that are only visible from heights of at least 200 feet?
How clean cut do you think the leading edge of one of those circles or antennae really are? I mean when viewed from an airplane at 750-2000 feet they look real clean-don’t they?
How do you think they look if you put your face right into the straw on the ground? Do you really think a matter of inches makes a difference?
And as for having these differing angles and designs line up proportionately, it’s been well established that any one can obtain surveying tools to do the job.
Whether it’s a chain, a total station, or GPS.
I’m quite certain however that totally satisfactory results could be obtained by using any of the hand-held, consumer/schmuck models that are everywhere.

[ Edited: 06 February 2011 01:50 PM by VYAZMA ]
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Posted: 06 February 2011 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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I think it’s funny that a major argument against them being created by people is that they are too complex to have been done late one night.  One can only see them from the air, and most farmers are too busy to check each of their fields carefully each day.  So, it seems reasonalbe that some group plans the design, then spends two, three or more nights doing it.  When they are finally done, they call the local news who fly over it and publicize it.

Occam

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Posted: 06 February 2011 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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GPS must be pretty accurate as my friend who is a surveyor tells me they don’t use transits much anymore.  But I think he may have told me that there is a process that they have to use to correct their data which is intentionally skewed by the military.  I think he said the corrections are published after a period of time to make the GPS system less usable for unauthorized military targeting.  This may have changed.

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Posted: 06 February 2011 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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asanta - 06 February 2011 01:41 AM
Theflyingsorcerer - 05 February 2011 04:38 PM

That video simply proves my point. The design is fairly simple, the execution is crude, and MORE THAN 19 HOURS is hardly “no time at all”.

TFS

THAT video does not mean that all crop circles made by man are crude and take 16 hours.
ALL crop circles are made by humans. What part of “farmers invite artists to make intricate crop circles. It doesn’t damage their crops and brings in extra money” don’t you understand??

19 hours, not 16. 19. Can’t you read? (If you can be bloody rude, so can I).

I understand you prefectly. I just don’t believe you.

TFS

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Posted: 06 February 2011 08:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 06 February 2011 03:08 PM
asanta - 06 February 2011 01:41 AM
Theflyingsorcerer - 05 February 2011 04:38 PM

That video simply proves my point. The design is fairly simple, the execution is crude, and MORE THAN 19 HOURS is hardly “no time at all”.

TFS

THAT video does not mean that all crop circles made by man are crude and take 16 hours.
ALL crop circles are made by humans. What part of “farmers invite artists to make intricate crop circles. It doesn’t damage their crops and brings in extra money” don’t you understand??

19 hours, not 16. 19. Can’t you read? (If you can be bloody rude, so can I).

I understand you prefectly. I just don’t believe you.

TFS

16 or 19 whatever, they are still made by humans. You can have your opinion, but not your own facts. That you don’t believe it, doesn’t make it untrue.

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Posted: 06 February 2011 11:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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asanta - 03 February 2011 06:43 PM
asanta - 03 February 2011 12:13 PM

Farmers actually invite artists into their fields to make the crop circles. It doesn’t damage the crop and it brings in extra money for them.

What exactly is questionable about the origins of the crop circles? That they only occur in English speaking countries, or those most familiar with English culture?

Only in English speaking countries? Not so. Actually in 2007 I saw one in Belgium. I understand they’re quite common all over Europe.

So let’s see if I have this right. Farmers invite people into their fields to flatten their crops, which will lure MORE people in, to trample down more crops….. Then they sit at the field gate and charge admission…... Yeah, right. I suppose it might have happened in a few cases, but really…. Actually from the stories I’ve heard, many farmers whose fields get crop-circled are more often annoyed than pleased, and have been known to harvest the affected fields even though the crop wasn’t fully ripe, just to PREVENT trespassing.

So you have facts whereas I only have an opinion? I suppose this means that you’ve interviewed EVERY farmer who’s ever had a circle appear on his land?Bald assertions are not facts.

What I find REALLY interesting about all this, Asanta, is not so much “Who made the crop circles?”, as - why does the idea that SOME of them might be of non-human origin make you so ANGRY? You’re an interesting case, in psychological terms. As interesting, in your own way, as those religious fundamentalists who get SOOOOOOOOO enraged when their beliefs are questioned.


TFS

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Posted: 07 February 2011 05:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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The argument for aliens seems so complex.  If they’re trying to communicate and yet have the technology to travel interstellar distances is carving indecipherable patterns in European crops an ideal method?  The best they can come up with?  I suppose it might be the kind of experiment kids conduct when they put obstacles in the path of an ant to see how it behaves, but I could also suppose that someone’s “god” was doing it for an “unknowable” purpose.  It seems to me that a simpler idea to test is the assumption that they’re man made, (certainly the simplest interpretation of the Elvis circle is as a very human, very current culture, tongue in cheek joke). 

This discussion suffers a lack of first hand experience with, and careful examination of crop circles.  Without that we’re all just speculating.  If I might be so bold, Occam, I wonder if this is might be a good place to apply your razor.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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Jeciron - 07 February 2011 05:17 AM

The argument for aliens seems so complex.

Well it ain’t like some of them designs aren’t way complex too.
Although, now that I’m studying on it. . .

Jeciron - 05 February 2011 03:18 AM

I KNOW!! I KNOW!!!!  Genetically modified crops.  Corn has developed a hive type intelligence!  OH, WHAT CAN IT BE TRYING TO TELL US???  It is all Monsanto’s fault!

Theflyingsorcerer - 06 February 2011 11:27 PM

Only in English speaking countries? Not so. Actually in 2007 I saw one in Belgium. I understand they’re quite common all over Europe.

Hmmm considering that Belgium’s first GM crop was planted in 2006.  Coincidence?  I think not.

psikeyhackr - 03 February 2011 10:53 AM

There is also a video of a pilot who gives tours who claims that one appeared in broad daylight in less the 30 minutes.  He had flown back to refuel his plane over an area where there was no circle and it was there when he flew back.

Well, there you go.  Aliens would have been way too obvious, but them little modified Genies saw that plane fly by and it was: pssst, let’s have some fun with him, quick flop to the left and lay down, game plan 5C, pass it on.

VYAZMA - 06 February 2011 08:52 AM

I find it foolish to be scrutinizing photos of circles I can’t be sure even exist. So let’s see GPS coordinates.

Photoshop you make me want to cry. 
You mean some of those crop circles don’t even exist?
Although, if that butterfly-man is photoshopped that was one numero uno skilled Adobe boy, or girl.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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VYAZMA - 06 February 2011 01:08 PM

This is from Perdue University’s website. It is the first thing I grabbed.  Aside from that I actually get out and about with my line of work. I see things in action. I’ve talked with farmers, construction engineers, utility engineers etc…They have all explained to me numerous times, in numerous occasions, with actual live examples in front of me, the accuracy of their GPS tools.  So you can imagine how frustrating having this debate with you is.

Didn’t this start off talking about HAND HELD GPSes?

There is GPS equipment and there is GPS equipment.

As with most things the higher the precision the higher the PRICE.  Also there is the problem of access to that equipment.  Are special licenses required to be allowed to purchase it?  How big is it?  How much does it weigh?  What a surveyor is willing to carry around to lay out the foundation of a building that costs millions of dollars and what some HYPOTHETICAL CROP CIRCLE ARTISTS can afford to use to sneak in to crush some plants are most likely totally different things.

I was not talking about the theoretical limit of GPS technology on a cost is no object basis.  I was talking about the mass produced consumer grade equipment.  Now you are trying to imply GPS is all the same.

FASCINATING!  LOL

psik

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Posted: 07 February 2011 11:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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Jeciron - 07 February 2011 05:17 AM

The argument for aliens seems so complex.  If they’re trying to communicate and yet have the technology to travel interstellar distances is carving indecipherable patterns in European crops an ideal method?  The best they can come up with?  I suppose it might be the kind of experiment kids conduct when they put obstacles in the path of an ant to see how it behaves, but I could also suppose that someone’s “god” was doing it for an “unknowable” purpose.  It seems to me that a simpler idea to test is the assumption that they’re man made, (certainly the simplest interpretation of the Elvis circle is as a very human, very current culture, tongue in cheek joke). 

This discussion suffers a lack of first hand experience with, and careful examination of crop circles.  Without that we’re all just speculating.  If I might be so bold, Occam, I wonder if this is might be a good place to apply your razor.

I guess I sort of have to agree with this. None of us, including me, really knows what we’re talking about.

However I do dislike blanket statements (“All XXX are YYY”) presented without a shred of real proof, so I’ll argue against them whenever I get the chance.

Regards to all,

TFS.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Didn’t this start off talking about HAND HELD GPSes?

There is GPS equipment and there is GPS equipment.

As with most things the higher the precision the higher the PRICE.  Also there is the problem of access to that equipment.  Are special licenses required to be allowed to purchase it?  How big is it?  How much does it weigh?  What a surveyor is willing to carry around to lay out the foundation of a building that costs millions of dollars and what some HYPOTHETICAL CROP CIRCLE ARTISTS can afford to use to sneak in to crush some plants are most likely totally different things.

I was not talking about the theoretical limit of GPS technology on a cost is no object basis.  I was talking about the mass produced consumer grade equipment.  Now you are trying to imply GPS is all the same.

FASCINATING!  LOL

psik

Are you serious?
Are you going to mince this down to this?
Please, refrain from further commenting on this thread…please.
I don’t think you have the requisite basic technological knowledge to continue this discussion. Which has conveniently shifted from crop circles to surveying equipment. I’m sure you would love to continue this discussion about GPS as long as it deflects away from your earlier daffy comments about crop circles.
Anybody can purchase this equipment.
It weighs little, and can be carried around.
This equipment can be rented, borrowed, stolen, or purchased.
Are you really implying now that people cannot obtain the types of simple surveying equipment that could be used to plot out these designs?
Psikey I believe that you detract from common sense discussion in this forum. You are a hindrance to discussion, and your crafty little posts designed to imply aliens and conspiracies do not nourish good debate. They don’t offer good debate because your rebuttals and footnotes reveal a certain disconnect on your part.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 11:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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We recognize that crop circles are made by beings with a modicum of intelligence, but we have no evidence of who made them. 
We recognize that graffiti and bathroom scrawls are made by beings with a modicum of intelligence, but we have no evidence of who made them.
(Yes, some graffiti artists have been caught, and some humans who made crop circles have either been caught or confessed to them, so we can’t use that as a refutation.)

I don’t see that we can assume aliens for one and not aliens for the others. 

We have pretty good evidence of a bit over six billion humans on earth.  We have no evidence as yet of any aliens on earth, so it would seem reasonable to assume it’s far, far more likely that humans were responsible for crop circles, graffiti and bathroom scrawls.

Occam

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Posted: 07 February 2011 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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VYAZMA - 07 February 2011 11:26 AM

Are you serious?
Are you going to mince this down to this?

You can accuse me of mincing and I can accuse you of mincing.

I am not trying to dispute that EXPENSIVE GPS equipment can be extremely accurate.

But you are implying that these HYPOTHETICAL CROP CIRCLE ARTISTS that you don’t have a picture of creating a partially completed BIG CROP CIRCLE used GPS equipment to do it.  From what I have seen of cheap consumer GPS equipment if you give 20 different people 20 of the same make and model of GSP then if one is 5 feet off in one direction and another is 5 feet off in the opposite direction then you are going to get a bad crop circle.

But if I went out and bought a GPS for less than $200 I would consider a 5 foot error totally acceptable.  But any surveyor that lays out the foundation of a building and has a 5 foot error will probably be fired and deserve it.

You can call that mincing all you want.  I say you refuse to objectively evaluate the hypothesis you prefer to believe.

psik

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