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The NEW 4 Step Proof for God
Posted: 05 February 2011 03:29 AM   [ Ignore ]
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The New 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible

Infinite Regress is Impossible
1. We observe trillions and trillions of cause and effects in nature, and no hard evidence something comes from nothing, which is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If there was an infinite regress you would have happened already having had an eternity do so. And you would never have existed because the past would continue to go on for eternity never reaching this point. As you can see, infinite regress in all its varieties (e.g. cycles, mutiverses) is inherently contradictory and therefore, false.

Something Can’t Come From Nothing
2. Something can’t come from nothing (non-existence) either, because that which does not exist can’t cause anything. Nothing always leaves nothing from nothing. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process in an isolated system, the total energy remains the same. Since that which does not exist has no energy, it cannot produce a singularity for the universe. Many times I have heard atheists say, “The properties of the universe are different from the whole, so the composition doesn’t abide in cause and effect when it was brought into being.” Of course, this is doublespeak because for something to be “brought into being” requires a cause.

A Mind is Needed to Create a Mind
3. Since nature can’t always have existed nor start up from nothing, there must exist that which is outside of nature, that is, outside of time and space which always existed. This is whom we call the uncreated Creator. If you want to compare an always existing timeless singularity to the uncreated Creator, simply observe what we know that that which doesn’t have a mind, will, emotion, conscience, intuition, or self-consciousness can’t produce that which does. The lesser can never produce the greater. There has not even been enough interatomic interactions in the history of the universe to be able to do so. If you claim time is needed to bring about this universe from a singularity but the singularity has no time then this universe would never have existed if a causeless singularity existed.

The Resurrection Proves Jesus is God
4. Now that we know the uncreated Creator exists, we can compare. A God who is accessible and personal is better than one that is not. Only in Christianity do we find God enters His creation and dies for the sins of the world and proves He is our Creator by resurrecting Himself from the dead which can only occur supernaturally. Since almost all skeptical scholars concede for good reasons the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings and there are no naturalistic explanations that can account for the origin of the disciples beliefs (having exhausted them all), we should submit ourselves to this evidence, because if a person doesn’t, they will surely go to Hell according to Jesus our Creator.

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3476-4-Step-Proof-for-God-amp-Minimal-Facts-Approach&p=8159

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Posted: 05 February 2011 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Not only is that not proof of god, it shows that lots of people have limited scope in their understanding of science, and their understanding of just how effectively or ineffectively the human brain can perceive actual reality as opposed to perceived reality.
For me this limited scope often is apparent when people start throwing around the word “infinite” or “something can’t come from nothing”.
These type concepts reveal a limited ability to cognitively take the universe into consideration.
Now, we couple this with your other long, whacky post about moon phases or whatever it was you wrote and you are coming into this forum with low credibility right from the start.
In fact with posts like yours I often wonder if in fact people like you are not just practical jokers. People who can get on here and spin a good yarn just to see how others might react. Maybe you’re just an atheist who is throwing out some wacky ideas here to see how others will react to it.
Because the alternative is that you are at least slightly “frustrated”...

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Posted: 05 February 2011 08:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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I think it’s interesting that he “proves” that nothing in the universe can possibly have always existed, and then invents a sort of “grandfather clause” to exempt God from the same rule! smile

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Posted: 05 February 2011 09:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Since nature can’t always have existed, therefore, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call the uncreated Creator.

The uncreated Creator proven to exist is what we mean by God. Haven’t said who God is yet at that point, but we know God exists.

The question is who is God? And the only one that proved He is God is Jesus by the disciples who teistified to having seen Him alive from the dead in various group settings.

Since you can’t find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples’ beliefs seeing Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, you concede Jesus is God.

Praise the Lord!

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Posted: 05 February 2011 09:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Noselfwilling, I hate to say this, but you make no sense at all.  None of what you said is accurate and I think the other two pointed why you make no sense.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 05 February 2011 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 03:29 AM

Infinite Regress is Impossible

Therefore an infinite, timeless god who has always existed is impossible. 

noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 03:29 AM

Something Can’t Come From Nothing

Quantum Mechanics begs to differ with you.  See “Fluctuations, Quantum.” 

noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 03:29 AM

A Mind is Needed to Create a Mind

No it isn’t.  Evolution can - and has - done it. 

noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 03:29 AM

The Resurrection Proves Jesus is God
... Since almost all skeptical scholars concede for good reasons the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings…

No they don’t.

noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 03:29 AM

and there are no naturalistic explanations that can account for the origin of the disciples beliefs…

There are plenty of naturalistic explanations: Fiction and exaggerated writing, mistakes by fallible humans, deceit, etc. 

noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 03:29 AM

...we should submit ourselves to this evidence…

Submission?  That’s a bit of a problem! grin  I submit to no one!

noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 03:29 AM

because if a person doesn’t, they will surely go to Hell according to Jesus our Creator.

What an anal-retentive, evil, vindictive, petty, uptight and insecure god you believe in.  How dare such a god create the entire universe and humans on one tiny insignificant, out-of-the-way planet and not provide clear, unambiguous, iron-clad proof of his existence just so he could use any questioning of that lack of clear evidence to torture—for all eternity!—millions of men, women and children for nothing more than using their minds to weigh that lack of evidence?  I don’t even demand that my dog worship me.  Why would an all-powerful being require worship from mere mortals?

[ Edited: 05 February 2011 10:34 AM by Rocinante ]
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Posted: 05 February 2011 10:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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And there is nothing “new” in your arguments.  They date back thousands of years.

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

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Posted: 05 February 2011 10:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Thank you, Rocinante.  Now you make sense.  Too bad our new friend can’t understand you though.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 05 February 2011 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Geez, the end times are coming.  I agree totally with Rocinante.  LOL  LOL

Occam

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Succinctness, clarity’s core.

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Posted: 05 February 2011 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Rocinante - 05 February 2011 10:31 AM

Therefore an infinite, timeless god who has always existed is impossible. 

Because infinite regress of nature is impossible, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call God.

Quantum mechanics has never been seen to violate the law of cause and effect.

Evolution needs to explain where evolution came from. It can’t.

Yes, Gary R. Habermas has recorded almost all schoars who have done primary work on the resurrection claim and based on the evidence of Scripture, they almost all agree they disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead.

Fiction is not a viable naturalistic explanation, because these were real people, with real lives, and some of the second generation apostles knew them personally. There is nothing in the text that gives a hint of fiction. Exaggerated writing is not a viable option because the original disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead adn went to their deaths for that eyewitness testimony.

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (Rom. 1.20).

No known mistakes can account for their testimony.

There is no fraud or deceit since people don’t willingly die for what they know is a lie.

Hell is a place where you can for eternity never submit to God.

Ad hominems against God don’t work. Their ad hominems. I can’t think of better evidence of God than the fact if nature always existed, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. And I can’t think of better evidence Jesus is God than the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive form the dead.

So realize evidence is not the problem, but your heart.

God wants a relationship with His creation, with sovereign free willed beings, just like you want a relationship with your dog, but the relationship of God with His children is far more profound because dogs don’t have God-consciousness.

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (Rom. 1.20).

[ Edited: 05 February 2011 06:08 PM by noselfwilling ]
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Posted: 05 February 2011 06:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Because infinite regress of nature is impossible, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call God.

Because you and I have a mother (contingent beings) it doesn’t follow that the universe as a whole must have had one . That supposition is owing to the poverty of human imagination.

Really, you are saying nothing new. What you present (albeit, in a rather new guise) are merely arguments that have long since been discarded, even by theologians.

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Posted: 05 February 2011 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Quoting Pambania:

Really, you are saying nothing new. What you present (albeit, in a rather new guise) are merely arguments that have long since been discarded, even by theologians.

The problem is that some ministers just barely got through theological school if they were lucky.  Many just switched from some other job to being ministers.  So they don’t have the vaguest idea of what theologists have recognized.  Instead they give sermons based on long outmoded views, and their congregations, just as poorly educated, believe they’ve just heard the word of god.

Occam

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Posted: 05 February 2011 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 06:06 PM

Fiction is not a viable naturalistic explanation, because these were real people, with real lives, and some of the second generation apostles knew them personally. There is nothing in the text that gives a hint of fiction. Exaggerated writing is not a viable option because the original disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead adn went to their deaths for that eyewitness testimony.

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (Rom. 1.20).

No known mistakes can account for their testimony.

People of this era have sworn that they saw Jim Jones raise people from the dead.  Therefore, by your “logic” Jim Jones must have raised people from the dead.  No other explanation could ever trump eyewitnesses.  Hey, ever been to a magic show?  You’d be the perfect spectator since you would think everything is real and are conceited enough to believe you can’t be fooled! grin

noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 06:06 PM

There is no fraud or deceit since people don’t willingly die for what they know is a lie.

That means the 9/11 hijackers died for the truth.  You must accept everything the 9/11 hijackers stood for as the absolute truth since “people don’t willingly die for what they know is a lie.”  The 9/11 hijackers also could not have been deceived in any way in regards to their beliefs.

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

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Posted: 05 February 2011 10:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 06:06 PM

Gary R. Habermas has recorded almost all schoars who have done primary work on the resurrection claim and based on the evidence of Scripture, they almost all agree they disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead.

Fiction is not a viable naturalistic explanation, because these were real people, with real lives, and some of the second generation apostles knew them personally. There is nothing in the text that gives a hint of fiction. Exaggerated writing is not a viable option because the original disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead adn went to their deaths for that eyewitness testimony.


No known mistakes can account for their testimony.

There are lots of people around who would swear on a stack of bibles that they truly believe they have seen Elvis, alive and well, working at a Burger King in Chehalis, Washington just in the last two weeks. These were real people, with real lives. No known mistakes can account for their testimony.

TFS

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Posted: 06 February 2011 04:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Pambania - 05 February 2011 06:53 PM

Because infinite regress of nature is impossible, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call God.

Because you and I have a mother (contingent beings) it doesn’t follow that the universe as a whole must have had one . That supposition is owing to the poverty of human imagination.

Really, you are saying nothing new. What you present (albeit, in a rather new guise) are merely arguments that have long since been discarded, even by theologians.

We already proved that the uncreated Creator is a being because a mind is needed to create a mind. The question then became who is He? Since we are personal, how can God be less than us relationally and personally? For example, Brahma is not God because they say he is amoral.

All analogies break down of course at some point, but this is a good one where it would be wrong for God to annihilate us once we know of His existence, just as it would be wrong to the end the life of a child at the age of 12.

What is a poverty of the human conscience, if one was to think that way, is to think God has morals below our own. Impossible. Higher morality would be the cause of our existence, not a lower morality.

I agree nothing I said was new, for the Bible says nothing is new under the sun, but the arguments still hold as you and I are unable to overturn them.

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Posted: 06 February 2011 04:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Rocinante - 05 February 2011 07:12 PM

People of this era have sworn that they saw Jim Jones raise people from the dead.  Therefore, by your “logic” Jim Jones must have raised people from the dead.  No other explanation could ever trump eyewitnesses.  Hey, ever been to a magic show?  You’d be the perfect spectator since you would think everything is real and are conceited enough to believe you can’t be fooled!

I just went to the wiki site for Jim Jones who hated Christianity and nothing about any resurrection claims. Let me know if you find a naturalistic explanation for the alleged magic shown nearly 2000 years ago for the discliples claiming they had seen, talked with, touched and walked with Jesus in various group settings over 40 days and willingly died for that eyewitness testimony. The burden is on you. Are you up to the challenge? or will you continue to shut your mind down.

That means the 9/11 hijackers died for the truth.  You must accept everything the 9/11 hijackers stood for as the absolute truth since “people don’t willingly die for what they know is a lie.”  The 9/11 hijackers also could not have been deceived in any way in regards to their beliefs.

I am sure they 911 hijackers died for what they believed to be the truth. Does it make it true? No, for they had no evidence for beliefs, so it was assumed.

Whereas the disciples willingly died for their own eyewitness testimony in various group settings, but no known naturalistic explanation can account for it. Group hallucination, Swoon theory, Fraud Theory, Legends Theory even Combination Theory all fail. That’s why scholars can’t find a viable naturalistic explanation which should be fairly easy to determine if Jesus didn’t rise from the dead.

Christians win. It’s awesome!

[ Edited: 07 February 2011 04:02 AM by noselfwilling ]
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