Theflyingsorcerer - 05 February 2011 10:44 PM

There are lots of people around who would swear on a stack of bibles that they truly believe they have seen Elvis, alive and well, working at a Burger King in Chehalis, Washington just in the last two weeks. These were real people, with real lives. No known mistakes can account for their testimony.

TFS

A more reasonable naturalistic explanation is many Elvis impersonators. Besides they didn’t care enough to go check the grave out like the disciples did for Jesus. Elvis never claimed to be God or claimed he would resurrect himself as Jesus did, so there is no religio-historical context to do so.

Provide your 12 different group settings and name the individuals who saw Elvis resurrected over 30 days. If you can’t do that then it hardly compares to evidence that is needed. Your claim can’t meet the historical standard the Bible gives from antiquity.

noselfwilling-

Whereas the disciples willingly died for their own eyewitness testimony in various group settings, but no known naturalistic explanation can account for it. Group hallucination, Swoon theory, Fraud Theory, Legends Theory even Combination Theory all fail. That’s why scholars can’t find a viable naturalistic explanation which should be fairly easy to determine if Jesus didn’t rise from the dead.

Christians win. It’s awesome!

Cool! You win. What do we do now?

I’m not sure where you get your ideas or how Xians win.  Muslims could probably make the same arguments, but scientifically they’d be mistaken.  When faced with reality, the gods that humans create lose big time, including yours.

noselfwilling - 05 February 2011 03:29 AM

The New 4 Step Proof for God of the Bible
The Resurrection Proves Jesus is God
4. Now that we know the uncreated Creator exists, we can compare. A God who is accessible and personal is better than one that is not. Only in Christianity do we find God enters His creation and dies for the sins of the world and proves He is our Creator by resurrecting Himself from the dead which can only occur supernaturally. Since almost all skeptical scholars concede for good reasons the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings and there are no naturalistic explanations that can account for the origin of the disciples beliefs (having exhausted them all), we should submit ourselves to this evidence, because if a person doesn’t, they will surely go to Hell according to Jesus our Creator.

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3476-4-Step-Proof-for-God-amp-Minimal-Facts-Approach&p=8159

Since you obviously aren’t trained in any type of formal logic, critical process, or scientific methodology, I’ll forgo criticizing your first three points as I think I would be wasting my time pointing out the plethora of deeply flawed arguments within.

Instead, I’ll meet you on your own turf.

“Now that we know the uncreated Creator exists…”

Like I said, for the purposes of this post, I’ll just give you that. But for my own pride, I have to disclaim that I do not believe, in any way, that noselfwilling has demonstrated the existence of anything, much less a “Creator.”

“A god who is accessible and personal is better than one who is not.”

Under the auspices of what value system? Accessibility and personality are totally arbitrary features for which you are selecting, and then claiming are “better” than their converse.

“Only in Christianity do we find God enters His creation and dies for the sins of the world and proves He is our Creator by resurrecting Himself from the dead which can only occur supernaturally.”

Two things. For one you’re creating a totally arbitrary criterion by which to judge a religious framework. I might just as easily say, “Only in my house will you find my collection of books and my decorations and my writings, which proves I am the supreme human because only I have come up with that combination of features.” Secondly, your statement hinges upon resurrection occurring supernaturally. Let me posit a scenario in which we discover a natural means by which people can be resurrected? Does your argument fall apart? Does this disprove the diety of your Creator?

“Since almost all skeptical scholars concede for good reasons the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings and there are no naturalistic explanations that can account for the origin of the disciples beliefs”

Au contraire. I would say that the skeptical scholar on the subject, Geza Vermes, would heartily disagree with you. Even N.T. Wright, a scholar with whom you might find yourself in accord, acknowledges the airtightness of Vermes’ analysis on the subject of the resurrection (of course, Wright still finds some way to disagree with it, but such is the plight of good scholars too bound to conservative values).

If you get a minute, read this: http://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-History-Myth-Geza-Vermes/dp/0385522428

”...because if a person doesn’t, they will surely go to Hell according to Jesus our Creator.”

At least we’ll be in good company.

I always laugh at atheists who shout out “what science do you have to prove A), B) and C)” but then I also have to laugh at relgious people who then go on to try and use scientific arguements…

Both camps are rediculous if you ask me!

noselfwilling - 06 February 2011 04:21 AM

I just went to the wiki site for Jim Jones who hated Christianity and nothing about any resurrection claims.

Let me clue you in on something very important: Wikipedia is not the be all and end all of information.  It can be edited by 9-year olds for crying out loud!  The mere fact that you even used Wikipedia as your first and only reference source shows just how little you know about investigating anything, let alone remarkable claims.  Suffice it to say there are people, at least one of whom is still alive, (he did not die in Jonestown - hey maybe Jim Jones resurrected him!) who witnessed Jim Jones bringing nearly 40 dead people back to life.  How do you explain the eyewitness testimony that Jim Jones resurrected the dead? 

noselfwilling - 06 February 2011 04:21 AM

Let me know if you find a naturalistic explanation for the alleged magic shown nearly 2000 years ago…

As a magician, I know for an absolute fact that the same methods and techniques used by every magician of today are the exact same ones used for over 2 thousand years.  Human psychology, humans’ incredibly inaccurate memory and perceptions and the fact that we all make the same mistakes in observations and reasoning, all while insisting that we could never have made such mistakes don’t change over time.  Humans are humans.  And all humans—either from today or 2 thousand years ago—are capable of being fooled.  And these shortcomings that we all have, have been exploited and used as a starting point for magicians for millennia.  There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to magic.  You and I can be fooled and make mistakes.  People from 2,000 years ago could be fooled and make mistakes.

noselfwilling - 06 February 2011 04:21 AM

Whereas the disciples willingly died for their own eyewitness testimony in various group settings, but no known naturalistic explanation can account for it. Group hallucination, Swoon theory, Fraud Theory, Legends Theory even Combination Theory all fail. That’s why scholars can’t find a viable naturalistic explanation which should be fairly easy to determine if Jesus didn’t rise from the dead.

Christians win. It’s awesome!

Lots of people willingly die for all sorts of reasons, few of which make any sense.

Then, of course, there was Giordano Bruno, who willingly died for claiming that the stars are suns and other planets are inhabited. Your lot murdered him.

But what about those Elvis eyewitnesses? No known naturalistic explanation can account for it. Group hallucination, Swoon theory, Fraud theory, Legends theory, even Combination theory all fail. And how do you know they didn’t check the grave out? And how do you know there weren’t Christ impersonators around in 1st-century Palestine?

Elvis fans win. It’s awesome!

Occam. - 05 February 2011 11:24 AM

Geez, the end times are coming.  I agree totally with Rocinante.   

Occam

On a side note

I think we’re looking at this all wrong. Noselfwilling is an Atheist coming out of the closet. His church have these ridiculous arguments, he has doubts, so he comes here to looking for answers. What we have here is a born again Atheist.

ExMachina - 06 February 2011 04:00 PM

I think we’re looking at this all wrong. Noselfwilling is an Atheist coming out of the closet. His church have these ridiculous arguments, he has doubts, so he comes here to looking for answers. What we have here is a born again Atheist.

Naaah, he’s just terrified that he may be wrong, but equally scared to admit it, so he buries his fears beneath a veneer of fundamentalism. The mere existence of anyone with different beliefs (us) brings these terrors so close to the surface of consciousness that he feels he must destroy us, so that he can again be comfortable and not have to face his inner demons.

TFS

noselfwilling - 06 February 2011 04:26 AM

A more reasonable naturalistic explanation is many Elvis impersonators. Besides they didn’t care enough to go check the grave out like the disciples did for Jesus.

Actually they did!  And since Elvis’ name is misspelled on the grave that must mean something!   And besides, you can’t prove that Elvis’ grave actually contains Elvis. 

noselfwilling - 06 February 2011 04:26 AM

Elvis never claimed to be God or claimed he would resurrect himself as Jesus did, so there is no religio-historical context to do so.

Oh ye of little faith:

Jesus:  World famous by just his first name.
Elvis: World famous by just his first name.

Jesus: Two syllables.
Elvis: Two syllables

Jesus:  Three consonants and two vowels.
Elvis:  Three consonants and two vowels.

Jesus H. Christ:  Twelve letters.
Elvis Presley:  Twelve letters.

Jesus:  Confusion over what the “H” in “Jesus H. Christ” stood for.
Elvis:  Confusion over whether Elvis’ middle name was “Aron” or “Aaron.”

Jesus:  Had a brother not many know about.
Elvis:  Had a brother not many know about.

Jesus:  Brother named James, starts with a “J”, 5 letter, 3 consonants, 2 vowels.
Elvis:  Brother named Jesse, starts with a “J”, 5 letters, 3 consonants, 2 vowels.

Jesus:  Christmas has 9 letters.
Elvis:  Graceland has 9 letters.

Jesus:  A Capricorn.
Elvis:  A Capricorn

Jesus:  King of Kings.
Elvis:  King of Rock & Roll.

Jesus:  The Lord’s Shepherd.
Elvis:  Dated Cybill Shepherd.

Jesus:  His father is everywhere.
Elvis:  His father was a drifter, and hence moved around everywhere.

Jesus:  Walked on water.
Elvis:  In Blue Hawaii, surfed on water.

Jesus:  Said, “Love thy neighbor.”
Elvis:  Said, “Don’t be cruel.”

Jesus:  Was the Lamb of God.
Elvis:  Had Mutton Chop sideburns.

Jesus:  Part of the Trinity.
Elvis:  First band was a Trio.

Jesus:  33 at time of death.  3 + 3 = 6
Elvis:  42 at time of death.  4 + 2 = 6
6 + 6 = 12 (see next item.)

Jesus:  Entourage, the Apostles, had 12 members.
Elvis:  Entourage, The Memphis Mafia, had 12 members.

Jesus:  Wore a crown (symbol of royalty) of thorns.
Elvis:  Wore Royal Crown hair styler.

Jesus:  Said, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.”
Elvis:  Said in Jailhouse Rock, “Drinks on me!”

Jesus:  Matthew was one of his many biographers.
Elvis:  Neil Mathews was one of his many biographers.

Jesus:  “Countenance was like lighting, and his raiment white as snow.” (Matthew 28:3)
Elvis:  Wore snow-white jumpsuits with lighting bolts.

Jesus:  Lived in a State of Grace in a Near Eastern Land.
Elvis:  Lived in Graceland in a nearly Eastern state.

Jesus:  Mary, an important woman in Jesus’ life, was of Immaculate Conception.
Elvis:  Priscilla, an important woman in Elvis’ life, went to Immaculate Conception High School.

Jesus:  The Son of God.
Elvis:  Recorded with Sun Studios.

Jesus:  Was a carpenter.
Elvis:  Favorite class in High School was Wood Shop.

Jesus:  A Jew worshipped by Christians.
Elvis:  Wore both a Jewish Star of David and a Christian Cross.

Jesus:  Called a “…glutton and a drunk.” (Luke 7:34)
Elvis:  Called “…an overweight druggie…”

Jesus:  Roamed the dessert.
Elvis:  Played the Sahara in Vegas.

Jesus:  Said, “Man shall not live by bread alone.”
Elvis:  Liked his sandwiches with peanut butter and bananas.

Jesus:  Ascended into Heaven to be with God.
Elvis:  Ascended to the stage with Strauss’ ‘Thus Spake Zarathustra’ (The piece symbolizes the ascension of man into the realm reserved for the gods.)

Jesus:  Came back after being resurrected.
Elvis:  Had his 1968 ‘comeback’ special.

Jesus:  Sat on a throne after his death.
Elvis:  Died on the “throne.”

Jesus:  Was sighted alive after word of his death.
Elvis:  Was sighted alive after word of his death.

And finally…

Rearrange the letters in Elvis and you get…you got it…Lives!!!  Praise Elvis!

Almost all scholars who do their thesis or peer review journal work on the resurrection of Jesus all concede that the original apostles truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

Since nobody in the past two thousand years has been able to come up with a naturalistic explanation for the original of the disciples’ beliefs, we know with 100% certainty Jesus raised Himself from the dead proving He is God, that therefore, salvation is only through Him, and there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved.

This is relatively easy to figure out since it is not rocket science or string theory, so if there is a naturalistic explanation you would have been able to come up with one that fits the data. Since you can’t you prove Jesus is God and since you don’t want to be forgiven by God for you sins, then you will go to Hell.

If you don’t want it, you don’t have to have it. Free will is not free if you don’t have the choice to be eternally separted from God in Hell for all eternity.

If nature always existed, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. And nature can’t come from nothing, because that which does not exist can’t produce anything. It has no energy, no existence and would violate the first law of thermodynamics.

Very easy to prove God exists just as God said,

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (Rom. 1.20).

My advice. Don’t be a zombie atheist for Satan. Don’t be a dullard.

Look Mommy, there’s a troll dancing underneath that bridge.

Why do people fell compelled to troll? Just don’t post and move along.

noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 12:00 AM

Why do people fell compelled to troll? Just don’t post and move along.

Noself you’re either a troll or a person who’s been so brainwashed that your pupils have turned white. You make the call.