11 of 30
11
The NEW 4 Step Proof for God
Posted: 09 February 2011 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 151 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1332
Joined  2010-06-07

Christianity was Paul’s creation. No reason to think Paul had any authority to speak of a historical Jesus and certainly no authority to speak for God.

It’s a mistake to assume the Bible has any authority at all. Eyewitness accounts are unreliable without physical evidence. It’s tempting to argue with Christians the proof provided by the Bible however its an argument about unreliable, unverified and unjustified testimony. 

It’s like arguing who would when in a fight between Wonder Woman and Superman. Who’s the better spokes-hole for God? Paul or Mohammad…

What are you going to prove? One’s knowledge of unreliable information? It maybe entertaining for a while but there are no solid conclusions to be had.

You want to believe Jesus is God, ok, do it because it makes you feel like good and feel like you know some truth about reality. Fine with me. Just don’t pretend there is some rational reason for doing so. The Bible doesn’t provide one. If you have nothing but the Bible to support your belief then you have nothing.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 152 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1332
Joined  2010-06-07
Mriana - 08 February 2011 11:11 PM

ROFL!  Reverse Fatwa.  Obviously you have no idea what a Fatwa is.

I’ve been trying to figure out how a reverse Fatwa would work.

I think what was meant is something like…

“I’m made of rubber, your made of glue. It bounces off me and sticks to you.”

It’s strong magic…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 153 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1071
Joined  2007-06-20
Gnostikosis - 09 February 2011 03:49 PM

I’ve been trying to figure out how a reverse Fatwa would work.

A reverse fatwa would be a resurrection:

Fatwa = killing someone.

Reverse fatwa = bringing the dead back to life!

LOL

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 154 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  152
Joined  2010-05-27

This premise is hidden in many religious tracks—-
P1: The only way for people to act on extraordinary claims is if they have extraordinary evidence. (if and only if)

It typically goes:
Fact: Historic people acted on extraordinary claims.
Ergo, those people had extraordinary evidence.

Now if you think for a minute how that can logically follow it must be because of P1, and P1 cannot be weakened to be if they have extraordinary evidence they can act on extraordinary claims because then it would be the affirming the consequent logical fallacy.

But, you know I don’t even care about that, because you stumbled into my interest there.  My atheism is based more in anthropology then cosmology.  I brought up Mormon’s not because they deserve special scorn—in fact I grew to like a lot of Mormon’s while I did graduate work in Utah, but to point out their missionaries use the same line.  In fact it seems to be an ubiquitous idea in religion to invoke P1. 

What is amazing though is that P1 doesn’t stand at all under any broad examination of humanity.  There is no evidence that people work this way whatsoever as you go back into the historic record.  And you can’t even weaken it: P2: Most of the time for communities to act on extraordinary claims they have extraordinary evidence. Nooo!  Quite often they do not, and religions you have rejected yourself are a rich source of examples!

So, please don’t use P1 or P2.  We wish they were true.  But, any amount of awareness about humans will reveal they are not true very often.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 05:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 155 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  120
Joined  2011-02-05
qutsemnie - 09 February 2011 05:02 PM

The only way for people to act on extraordinary claims is if they have extraordinary evidence. (if and only if)

That’s why I can’t be an atheist because nobody has been able to explain how something can come from nothing or infinite regress even though we would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

Similarly, nobody has been able to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples’ beliefs they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings over 40 days.

Repent and give your life to Christ. Come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as Savior and so shall you be saved.

 Signature 

Repent and give your life to Christ. Come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as Savior and so shall you be saved. 12 groups saw Jesus resurrected.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 05:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 156 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  120
Joined  2011-02-05
Rocinante - 09 February 2011 04:13 PM

Fatwa = killing someone.

I’m declaring a non-killing fatwa upon you. It is done!

 Signature 

Repent and give your life to Christ. Come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as Savior and so shall you be saved. 12 groups saw Jesus resurrected.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 05:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 157 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

No, you can’t be an atheist because you do not have even the slightest conception or understanding of the rules of logic, evidence and reasoning.

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 05:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 158 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  338
Joined  2011-01-17
Occam. - 09 February 2011 05:23 PM

No, you can’t be an atheist because you do not have even the slightest conception or understanding of the rules of logic, evidence and reasoning.

Occam

This.

 Signature 

“You can tell me that it’s gospel but I know that it’s only church.”

Tom Waits

“I take a simple view of life. It is keep your eyes open and get on with it.”

Laurence Sterne

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 159 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1071
Joined  2007-06-20

Poe’s Law people, Poe’s Law!

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 160 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1332
Joined  2010-06-07
noselfwilling - 09 February 2011 05:16 PM
qutsemnie - 09 February 2011 05:02 PM

The only way for people to act on extraordinary claims is if they have extraordinary evidence. (if and only if)

That’s why I can’t be an atheist because nobody has been able to explain how something can come from nothing or infinite regress even though we would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

There is no need for something to come from nothing. You have to first prove there was a time there was nothing. Maybe there has always been something. Your assumption of starting with nothing begs the question. You know what I mean? It assume a point where nothing existed. We may not be able to comprehend an eternal universe, that doesn’t mean we can automatically assume this universe started from nothing. We may end back up as a singularity have another big bang and the process repeats forever.

It maybe be uncomfortable that we don’t know what existed prior to the big bang, and you are free to believe whatever cause you wish until it’s proven to you otherwise but our lack of knowledge does not prove God. It only prove we don’t know everything.

Similarly, nobody has been able to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples’ beliefs they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings over 40 days.

Dreams and visions were accepted as real events and occurrences. People claim to see Jesus now in various patterns in potato chips etc. The mind fills in to provide an image from our expectations. Paul experienced such a vision and accepted the reality of the experience. He even points out heavenly bodies are different from flesh. Likely he was relying on his vision. You are relying on what different people saw. They may have all seen different things and assumed it to fulfill their expectation of Jesus. A vision, a dream, a glimpse of someone in the crowd that looked like Jesus. You maybe able to gather 500 people who claim to have seen Elvis alive, and they really believe it.
 

Repent and give your life to Christ. Come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as Savior and so shall you be saved.

What if you are wrong? You are relying on a specific interpretation of events of 2000 years ago. What if Paul, though meaning well, was a false prophet? Paul wrote some letters true to his own understanding. You maybe leading people astray from what Jesus taught by relying on them. You have no way to verify Paul spoke for God. Christianity teaches an interpretation of the new testament which it has no real authority to teach. You accept it because you’ve been exposed constantly though one means or another since you were young and never thought to question it. You might be just as sure of the truth of Islam if you had been born to different parents because your expectations of what God is would fit the Muslim ideology.

You can believe as you wish but whatever you accept as true you should justify with real physical evidence as best you can. Not the claims of a religion who makes claims that fulfill your expectations for God.

Up to you to question and validate what you think you know. You don’t have to accept any scientific claim that you can’t justify and validate for yourself. Why would you accept any religions claims that you haven’t validated for yourself.

Bring people back to life, drive out demons, cure the sick. Do something to validate what you believe. Then go forth with some authority on what you speak. Otherwise don’t expect what you claim or the various claims of different Christian beliefs to carry any weight.

[ Edited: 09 February 2011 06:41 PM by Gnostikosis ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 06:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 161 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1332
Joined  2010-06-07
Occam. - 09 February 2011 05:23 PM

No, you can’t be an atheist because you do not have even the slightest conception or understanding of the rules of logic, evidence and reasoning.

Occam

Religious folks are programmed to think differently. Logic, evidence and reasoning mean something completely different to them. It takes a lot of exposure to different ideas, well at least some exposure. And, there has to be a wllingness to test the truth of those ideas.

The way the brain works is pretty weird. I wonder if there is a part that controls religious belief. If so maybe it over develops in some people.

You know… I believe in God because that’s the way my brain is wired. Not my fault anymore then it’s your fault you don’t believe in God.  LOL

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 10:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 162 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6516
Joined  2010-08-15
Gnostikosis - 09 February 2011 06:52 PM

Religious folks are programmed to think differently. Logic, evidence and reasoning mean something completely different to them. It takes a lot of exposure to different ideas, well at least some exposure. And, there has to be a willingness to test the truth of those ideas.

Well that about sums it up.

[:thumbs up smilie:]

 Signature 

We need each other, to keep ourselves honest

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 10:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 163 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  120
Joined  2011-02-05
Occam. - 09 February 2011 05:23 PM

No, you can’t be an atheist because you do not have even the slightest conception or understanding of the rules of logic, evidence and reasoning.

Occam

It’s illogical to accuse someone when you have no evidence for your accusation.

 Signature 

Repent and give your life to Christ. Come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as Savior and so shall you be saved. 12 groups saw Jesus resurrected.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 11:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 164 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  120
Joined  2011-02-05
Gnostikosis - 09 February 2011 06:38 PM

There is no need for something to come from nothing. You have to first prove there was a time there was nothing. Maybe there has always been something. Your assumption of starting with nothing begs the question. You know what I mean? It assume a point where nothing existed. We may not be able to comprehend an eternal universe, that doesn’t mean we can automatically assume this universe started from nothing. We may end back up as a singularity have another big bang and the process repeats forever.

I am glad you agree something can’t come from nothing so we can move onto the fact that if the universe always existed, then you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. I am not starting with nothing, but responding to atheists who say something comes from nothing by showing them why it is not possible, so that is a false reason for them being atheists.

It maybe be uncomfortable that we don’t know what existed prior to the big bang, and you are free to believe whatever cause you wish until it’s proven to you otherwise but our lack of knowledge does not prove God. It only prove we don’t know everything.
Dreams and visions were accepted as real events and occurrences. People claim to see Jesus now in various patterns in potato chips etc. The mind fills in to provide an image from our expectations. Paul experienced such a vision and accepted the reality of the experience. He even points out heavenly bodies are different from flesh. Likely he was relying on his vision. You are relying on what different people saw. They may have all seen different things and assumed it to fulfill their expectation of Jesus. A vision, a dream, a glimpse of someone in the crowd that looked like Jesus. You maybe able to gather 500 people who claim to have seen Elvis alive, and they really believe it.

We do know what happened before the big bang, God did it, since nature can’t come from nothing nor always have existed, so nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call the uncreated Creator or God.

A potato chip does not constitute a real living breathing person who walks and talks and whom you can touch that the disciples experienced. And group hallucinations are impossible according to modern psychology (DM-4 manual), that includes group visions and group dreams. People hallucinate differently, never the same. No filling-in can account for these 12 differen group settings, nor expectations. Actually the disciples had no expectations. They were changed from doubters to bold proclaimers when they saw the risen Jesus. Even Paul had an objective experience because those with him also saw the light and the man and heard the voice as they fell to the ground but didn’t understand the words. Paul was miraculously blinded for 3 days. Nothing can account for this naturalisticlally as well as his return to sight as Jesus predicted.

Spirit beings are spirits. We are soulical beings with physical bodies in the flesh. Spirits have bodies too, but they are not in the flesh. We too will have heavenly bodies just like ours except they can never die like Jesus was resurrected could never die again, an could use His body to do amazing things like walk through walls.

The person they were up close and personal with for 40 days is the same person they were with for 3 years, so that’s silly they wouldn’t know who He was.

Nobody seems to care about Elvis enough to check his grave with all the Elvis impersonators. Let me know if you find the kind of testimony we have in the Bible for Jesus that you pretend exists for Elvis. Moreover, Elvis is not a religio-historical figure to explain life. He was a fat bastard, drug induced and committed suicide.

What if you are wrong? You are relying on a specific interpretation of events of 2000 years ago. What if Paul, though meaning well, was a false prophet? Paul wrote some letters true to his own understanding. You maybe leading people astray from what Jesus taught by relying on them. You have no way to verify Paul spoke for God. Christianity teaches an interpretation of the new testament which it has no real authority to teach. You accept it because you’ve been exposed constantly though one means or another since you were young and never thought to question it. You might be just as sure of the truth of Islam if you had been born to different parents because your expectations of what God is would fit the Muslim ideology.

It is 100% proven. No human being has ever been able to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples’ beliefs. Paul died for his beliefs. People don’t willingly die for what they know is a lie. So he really spent 15 days with Peter and talked about the resurrection and Paul recounted the creedal form of the gospel with Peter, James and John in 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2. They had nothing to add unto him.

All the books of the NT agree perfectly with the OT too for the Messiah came to atone for sins (Is. 53) and to show no man could keep the law but God Himself, Christ Jesus, the 2nd Person of the Trinity. When I was young nobody taught me about Jesus, I never gave him a thought, none in my family were Christians and still not. I was born again January, 2001 at the age of 33. If I was born in Islam I would ask the question, since there is no evidence Jesus didn’t die on the cross, then some guy in a cave six centuries later is not going to change that, therefore, how can Islam be true?

You can believe as you wish but whatever you accept as true you should justify with real physical evidence as best you can. Not the claims of a religion who makes claims that fulfill your expectations for God.

Since you can’t find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples’ beliefs, and you can’t overturn the fact you would have happened already if there was an infinite regress, then realize you are living a lie. Evidence doesn’t mean anything to you.

Up to you to question and validate what you think you know. You don’t have to accept any scientific claim that you can’t justify and validate for yourself. Why would you accept any religions claims that you haven’t validated for yourself.

You validate my faith and disprove your own because you can’t solve these problems I present to you with your faith. Science proves God and that Jesus is God (Rom. 1.20). Since God would be an accessible God, you only got 3 choices: 1) we already proved Islam wrong; 2) Hinduism is wrong because Brahma is considered amoral, but how can God’s standards be below our own?; 3) hence, Christianity is it!

Bring people back to life, drive out demons, cure the sick. Do something to validate what you believe. Then go forth with some authority on what you speak. Otherwise don’t expect what you claim or the various claims of different Christian beliefs to carry any weight.

My faith is validated when you are unable to solve these problems of your faith and hostility towards Christianity. This is the authority I have, and I use it to lead people to Christ.

“If you search for him with all your heart and soul, you will find him” (Deut. 4.29). “You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart” (Jer. 29.13).

 Signature 

Repent and give your life to Christ. Come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as Savior and so shall you be saved. 12 groups saw Jesus resurrected.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 09 February 2011 11:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 165 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  338
Joined  2011-01-17

You know, repeating the same things over and over and over doesn’t make them true. You’ve been given excellent arguments, many by people who seem to have a greater scriptural knowledge than you, and you just keep repeating the same nutty things over and over.

“I am glad you agree something can’t come from nothing so we can move onto the fact that if the universe always existed, then you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. I am not starting with nothing, but responding to atheists who say something comes from nothing by showing them why it is not possible, so that is a false reason for them being atheists.”

What does that even mean? It’s incomprehensible. #1 the age of the universe does not change when humans evolved and #2 atheists don’t say the universe came from nothing. You don’t even know what you’re arguing against. We don’t know what was before the universe, but that does not mean god.

And you aren’t leading anyone here to christ, if anything, you’re just proving our points about nonsensical thinking.

[ Edited: 10 February 2011 12:05 AM by Bees Mom ]
 Signature 

“You can tell me that it’s gospel but I know that it’s only church.”

Tom Waits

“I take a simple view of life. It is keep your eyes open and get on with it.”

Laurence Sterne

Profile
 
 
   
11 of 30
11